Everybody started laughing listening to my cover of Oye Como Va by Santana

Normally it happens a few seconds after the first minute, does it happen to you too?
:smile:



Impossible task: who can tell me what subdivision is it at 1:08?
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Normally it happens a few seconds after the first minute, does it happen to you too?
:smile:



Impossible task: who can tell me what subdivision is it at 1:08?
The snare is 10 hits at a rate of 5 per the previous quarter note, followed by a 20/16 groove that feels like 12/16 + 8/16 = 20/16 with the 12/8 section feeling like a fast half time shuffle. Question is are you playing the 20/16 to a click at the original quarter note tempo, or are you making the adjustment with the snare intro? I'll have to be honest here, my first exposure to 5 notes per quarter is via one of Chaffee's online clinics a couple of months ago. Give us some insight into what's going on. This IS far out **** for some of us :)

EDIT: The 8/16 feels like a 9/16 swing cut short by a 16th triplet. In fact if it wasn't cut short, it would be 7/4.
 
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Wow you really paid attention on this, I'm impressed! Here is the groove I just wrote for you.
As you can see we are in 4/4 but with quintuplet subdivision.
The way you analyzed may be even ok but in my way the advantage is that the main beat keep been the same and only the subdivision change.
If you write it in 20/16 you need to made a weird change in the beat to make it work.

Ritmo quintine.jpg
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Wow you really paid attention on this, I'm impressed! Here is the groove I just wrote for you.
As you can see we are in 4/4 but with quintuplet subdivision.
The way you analyzed may be even ok but in my way the advantage is that the main beat keep been the same and only the subdivision change.
If you write it in 20/16 you need to made a weird change in the beat to make it work.

View attachment 90894
Yeah, I spent some time on this. When you say something's impossible, well then things start look interesting. I did have to use YouTube's slow-mo to get the answer LOL.

Here is the 4/4 version that I created at the same time as my 12/16 + 8/16 transcription:



Because of the syncopation when interpreted in 4/4, I didn't think that was the natural interpretation. But I'm not experienced at all with odd subdivisions greater than 3 within a quarter note. Although I would be VERY surprised if someone could play straight 4/4 time, and play this groove, and be able to go back to straight time without a hitch. Are you saying you can play the above to a quarter note click? If so, is this a freak of nature feat, or is there something else going on? Thanks
 
Yeah you were almost correct, just a couple of bass drum hits missing and the snare ghost notes but the structure of the hi hat was correct.

I absolutely can play it with a 4/4 click but I studied and practiced a lot, probably about 15 hours total.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Yeah you were almost correct, just a couple of bass drum hits missing and the snare ghost notes but the structure of the hi hat was correct.

I absolutely can play it with a 4/4 click but I studied and practiced a lot, probably about 15 hours total.
Such a mystery. What is the musical application? What is the overall intent? How do we approach this in a way that makes sense? For example, odd time signatures offer us a change in where '1' lands, leaving the listener tapping their foot or snapping their fingers on the up beat and wondering what happened. A sort of startle effect. As subsequent bars accumulate, they sort of get it. The odd subdivision, at least to me, isn't about achieving some mathematical calculation in the listeners mind, but rather a complete disconnect with the straight time that preceded it. But that said, I still came away with an interpretation (of how to play it as a player) of 12/16 + 8/16.

These are the kinds of details that I think we're in need of. Otherwise, we're just being competitive with the next drummer out there. Which would suck IMHO.
 
Such a mystery. What is the musical application? What is the overall intent? How do we approach this in a way that makes sense? For example, odd time signatures offer us a change in where '1' lands, leaving the listener tapping their foot or snapping their fingers on the up beat and wondering what happened. A sort of startle effect. As subsequent bars accumulate, they sort of get it. The odd subdivision, at least to me, isn't about achieving some mathematical calculation in the listeners mind, but rather a complete disconnect with the straight time that preceded it. But that said, I still came away with an interpretation (of how to play it as a player) of 12/16 + 8/16.

These are the kinds of details that I think we're in need of. Otherwise, we're just being competitive with the next drummer out there. Which would suck IMHO.
Actually it doesn't need to be so complicated for the listener, it's something to throw you off and to stand out when you first hear it, that's the effect anyone can hear even without knowing all the theory behind.

Anyway if you want to split the grove in two parts it's more correct to do it like this: 11/16 + 9/16 the second bass drum of the third beat is the right turning point.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Actually it doesn't need to be so complicated for the listener, it's something to throw you off and to stand out when you first hear it, that's the effect anyone can hear even without knowing all the theory behind.

Anyway if you want to split the grove in two parts it's more correct to do it like this: 11/16 + 9/16 the second bass drum of the third beat is the right turning point.
Raise your hand if you think this guy is blowing smoke up my ass. The first bass drum note of beat 3 does not fall on beat 3. It also doesn't fall on the beat in the 12/16 interpretation. Further, it makes no sense that it would be more straight forward to make a change to 5 subdivisions at the current tempo while simultaneously playing a new (odd) time signature (11/16).
 
Raise your hand if you think this guy is blowing smoke up my ass. The first bass drum note of beat 3 does not fall on beat 3. It also doesn't fall on the beat in the 12/16 interpretation. Further, it makes no sense that it would be more straight forward to make a change to 5 subdivisions at the current tempo while simultaneously playing a new (odd) time signature (11/16).
Ok there is some confusion here, I was referring to my handwritten transcription of the groove, the one in quintuplets because it's the only correct. Beat 3 it's the third quintuplet the one which starts with 2 bass drum notes. I agree with you on the fact that it doesn't make sense to change the 5 subdivision into some odd meters. I was just trying to point out that the way I think about the groove is by grouping the first 11 notes and the the other 9 but we still are talking about quintuplets.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Ok there is some confusion here, I was referring to my handwritten transcription of the groove, the one in quintuplets because it's the only correct. Beat 3 it's the third quintuplet the one which starts with 2 bass drum notes. I agree with you on the fact that it doesn't make sense to change the 5 subdivision into some odd meters. I was just trying to point out that the way I think about the groove is by grouping the first 11 notes and the the other 9 but we still are talking about quintuplets.
Ok, if it's the first bass drum note in beat 3, in your transcription, then that would be 10/16, not 11/16, and therefore would in my mind be a sensible interpretation - 10/16 + 10/16 = 20/16. It's still too syncopated for me for how I would play it, but to each their own.
This Version is the absolute worst I ever heard - total destruction of this piece in my opinion - hmmm (Drumming fine)
Not my favorite version of this song either but an alternative arrangement is well-appreciated. Anything that can illicit such emotion must be doing something right.

Now if Pietro feels up to the task and wants to give us the complete transcription that would be great. I think I've earned it LOL
 
Now if Pietro feels up to the task and wants to give us the complete transcription that would be great. I think I've earned it LOL
No sorry I don't have the drums transcription, I don't even writhe a drum part before to record my pieces but I have the midi score of the orchestra arrangement if you are interested.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
No sorry I don't have the drums transcription, I don't even writhe a drum part before to record my pieces but I have the midi score of the orchestra arrangement if you are interested.
That would be super cool. I'll PM you. I'm pretty sure I can drop a MIDI score right into Ableton Live, if not GarageBand. Thanks!
 
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