Erskine Is Shaming Me

Rattlin' Bones

Gold Member
This Erskine video has totally disrupted disoriented me and shaken my already shaky confidence. He is adamant in his public service announcement toward the end of the video that if you're swinging the hats (what is often called walking the dog but he simply calls syncopation) and on 2nd of the 3 strokes you're playing that 2nd stroke on closed hat it's wrong wrong wrong. Ya gotta watch the video to see how adamant he is about it (he's funny about it too). Starts at about the 8:00 minute mark:


After that video I found other videos on how to swing on hats and they do it the "wrong" way. And honestly I think the "wrong" way sounds better. But, man, Erskine is shaming me!

I think I probably play it more like this:


And this is the total "wrong" way:

 
Erskine is right. The middle vid has the guy opening up the hi hat on the "and," but not quite as much as Erskine, but it still sounds good. That's a stylistic choice, and while he does it right, I don't buy into the idea that the hats should always sizzle. However, I still liked the way he did it. The bottom guy sounds stiff when he does it, and if anything proves Erskine right, it's that vid.
 
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This is why I hate all drumming videos:

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They're supposed to help you, not make you neurotic. Like how do I make people terrified of not watching my damn video of the same ten seconds worth of information as everybody else in this grift.

The hell with it. Just keep playing and make the adjustment.

This kind of thing makes me really cranky.
 
Erskine is right. The middle vid has the guy opening up the hi hat on the "and," but not quite as much as Erskine, but it still sounds good. That's a stylistic choice, and while he does it right, I don't buy into the idea that the hats should always sizzle. However, I still liked the way he did it. The bottom guy sounds stiff when he does it, and if anything proves Erskine right, it's that vid.
For jazz, my New Beats just don't work. They're too loud. They're the equivalent of a "ping" ride. I want a sizzle. A shimmer.

I drove up to Cymbal House in Cincinnati area cymbal house

I bought two 16" Istanbul Agop paper thin crash cymbals for use as hats. Perfect behind small jazz combos. They shimmer and sizzle.

I am also closing gap between the cymbals per the first two videos, too.

If I start playing again with a sou/ funk band or a blues band I'll use the New Beats. But for our jazz combo I'm going with paper thin sizzle and shimmer.
 
For jazz, my New Beats just don't work. They're too loud. They're the equivalent of a "ping" ride. I want a sizzle. A shimmer.

I drove up to Cymbal House in Cincinnati area cymbal house

I bought two 16" Istanbul Agop paper thin crash cymbals for use as hats. Perfect behind small jazz combos. They shimmer and sizzle.

I am also closing gap between the cymbals per the first two videos, too.

If I start playing again with a sou/ funk band or a blues band I'll use the New Beats. But for our jazz combo I'm going with paper thin sizzle and shimmer.
Whoops! I have to correct myself. I thought Peter was opening up the hats more than the middle guy. I guess he's not. Maybe that's the difference between cymbals that you're talking about, eh?
 
For jazz, my New Beats just don't work. They're too loud. They're the equivalent of a "ping" ride. I want a sizzle. A shimmer.

I drove up to Cymbal House in Cincinnati area cymbal house

I bought two 16" Istanbul Agop paper thin crash cymbals for use as hats. Perfect behind small jazz combos. They shimmer and sizzle.

I am also closing gap between the cymbals per the first two videos, too.

If I start playing again with a sou/ funk band or a blues band I'll use the New Beats. But for our jazz combo I'm going with paper thin sizzle and shimmer.
I use New Beats all the time for jazz - not saying that something thinner might be cooler for some situations - but that hasn't stop my New Beats from filling that role just fine for me. YMMV of course.
 
While I agree that we must use our ears and our own taste when approaching various musical situations. IMO there is still a place for knowing and understanding certain norms and conventions.

And this simple convention Peter points is a great case in point. And one I have to say eluded me until embarrassingly deep into my career. Until finally while playing a show that required a lot of that hi hat swing stuff, someone finally hipped me to it (an embarrassing, yet essential lesson).

And that lesson? Unless you are purposefully wanting the music to feel stiff and un-swinging, then you can't play a short, closed, dry note for the "skip beat". That stiff and un-swinging is the effect of doing that really isn't debatable - as it is a well established tradition (backed by countless recordings, performances, etc. that we use to define "swinging").

And trust me, I totally sympathize with anyone confronting "un-learning" this habit - as I still struggle with it to this day. (It is something I consciously have to think about - which admittedly is absurd after 55 years of playing) :)
 
While I agree that we must use our ears and our own taste when approaching various musical situations. IMO there is still a place for knowing and understanding certain norms and conventions.

And this simple convention Peter points is a great case in point. And one I have to say eluded me until embarrassingly deep into my career. Until finally while playing a show that required a lot of that hi hat swing stuff, someone finally hipped me to it (an embarrassing, yet essential lesson).

And that lesson? Unless you are purposefully wanting the music to feel stiff and un-swinging, then you can't play a short, closed, dry note for the "skip beat". That stiff and un-swinging is the effect of doing that really isn't debatable - as it is a well established tradition (backed by countless recordings, performances, etc. that we use to define "swinging").

And trust me, I totally sympathize with anyone confronting "un-learning" this habit - as I still struggle with it to this day. (It is something I consciously have to think about - which admittedly is absurd after 55 years of playing) :)
Yes. Which is why right now my style is more that middle video.
 
I'll keep wailing on this, bc it's what I do-- things like this are supposed to be part of a larger package. You're not supposed spend a week sweating it. You can't just chase around somebody's youtube channel trying not to all the little things he says not to do, and expect it to work. You just keep listening to records and playing with people, and every day try to get a little closer to your own ideal of what good drumming sounds like... as you continue developing your ideal through more listening and more playing.



There are all kinds of times when I might play a hihat not correctly according to that part of the video. If he wants to tell a student that who is playing the cymbals badly, OK, but just broadcasting a blanket NOW DON'T DO THIS statement is not educational. Let's consult some video of Roy Haynes or Elvin Jones or Art Blakey and see if there's a way they never hit a cymbal.
It was pretty black&white per Erskine. NEVER NEVER NEVER play it the "wrong" way because it's wrong.

I'm looking for videos of some of the Art Blakey's etc. to see how they swing on their hats. The video plus audio is most helpful - sometimes it's a bit hard to discern how exactly their playing just from the recordings, which makes it IMHO more ludicrous to state it's absolutely "wrong".
 
And this simple convention Peter points is a great case in point. And one I have to say eluded me until embarrassingly deep into my career.

The key word being career. I think most people busy playing for a living will probably do a few things "wrong" according to someone. We go right from school to work, where we're not supervised by drummers any more-- there's not time to get every last thing dialed to a T according to Peter Erskine.
 
Whoops! I have to correct myself. I thought Peter was opening up the hats more than the middle guy. I guess he's not. Maybe that's the difference between cymbals that you're talking about, eh?
Erskine does open them a bit more. Biggest difference is Erskine plays hats all open on the 2nd &3rd hits just "The Dog". Closed only on the 1 "Walk". The second video on the 2nd hit they're barely open, and on 3rd hit open but the gap how far apart the hats are is much smaller gap in 2nd video than Erskine. Both of them talk about keeping gap small when they're open.
 
I learned this particular lesson early, when our high school jazz band was playing at a festival in Toronto. One of the judges was Ed Shaughnessy. I remember him saying, in the kindest of ways, "You've never really listened to jazz, have you?" He mentioned four on the floor bd and my hi hat as examples.

It was an absolutely true statement. I was good at reading, and I read the charts just fine, but I had no reference for what the music should sound like, really. I had never really listened to jazz at all, at that point. It was devestating.

Afterwards, I rode the elevator with him. He told me not to get discouraged. Said I was a good player, but I needed to learn the traditions of jazz if I wanted to sound authentic. He struck me as a very kind man.

So, don't get caught up in it, just recognize the traditions. As somebody said, you have to know the rules so you can break them on purpose.
 
For the life of me, in jazz recordings of players swinging behind band, I can not discern the difference. In some Count Basie it almost sounds like the total "wrong"way.
 
Yes. Which is why right now my style is more that middle video.
If I followed the middle video - that's fine. Because he's to be right in line with what Peter is saying (as well as talking around the whole thing more - which to me, makes it even more confusing.) Which is that the "skip beat" notes - the off beat, swung 1/8th's should not sound like the closed, tight sound that we typically play on two and four. Meaning 1 2 &3 4 &1 should be tsh ti tsh tsh ti tsh tsh... NOT tsh ti ti tsh ti ti tsh

Unless of course the intent is for the swing to feel very stiff and "old timey".

How open the tsh's are not the issue - nor how tight the ti sound is. That's all subjective and personal.... The point is that off-beat 1/8th should be on "Team TSH" and not on "Team TI". :)
 
The key word being career. I think most people busy playing for a living will probably do a few things "wrong" according to someone. We go right from school to work, where we're not supervised by drummers any more-- there's not time to get every last thing dialed to a T according to Peter Erskine.
Actually for me - the key word there was "embarrassing". As it only took going and doing some listening to realize what a blindspot I had in how I was hearing that. Sad to say the realization pointed out that there weren't in quotes around the word "wrong" - it was more like OMG, that's really WRONG, how could I have missed that?

And for me personally - though I went to school, school barely figured into my drum set education at all.... except as a place to apply what I had been self-teaching myself since about 12 or 13.

But I get how that could be the case for some - just wasn't for me.
 
This is why I hate all drumming videos:

View attachment 117716

They're supposed to help you, not make you neurotic. Like how do I make people terrified of not watching my damn video of the same ten seconds worth of information as everybody else in this grift.

The hell with it. Just keep playing and make the adjustment.

This kind of thing makes me really cranky.

I know right?

"If you don't play this like this....... you'll fail miserably in life"

"If you don't buy this.......no one will like you"

"If you don't play it THIS way, you will never get a girlfriend, or have any friends, or you will turn into a pumpkin covered in disfiguring boils"

For goodness sake.........I'm embarrassed for those kind of YouTubers.
 
Actually for me - the key word there was "embarrassing". As it only took going and doing some listening to realize what a blindspot I had in how I was hearing that. Sad to say the realization pointed out that there weren't in quotes around the word "wrong" - it was more like OMG, that's really WRONG, how could I have missed that?

But you were working-- that happened on a professional gig. People get caught up thinking that these finer points of musicianship are a prerequisite for even daring to venture out of the practice room.

And for me personally - though I went to school, school barely figured into my drum set education at all.... except as a place to apply what I had been self-teaching myself since about 12 or 13.

Me too, I never had actual lessons on drumset with a really great teacher. Most of what I know I had to figure out from playing and being around people, mostly after I was out of school.

I get kind of arrogant about it-- like, you had 8 years of lessons with great drummer X, how come I play better than you?
 
But you were working-- that happened on a professional gig. People get caught up thinking that these finer points of musicianship are a prerequisite for even daring to venture out of the practice room.
Oh yeah, see what you mean. I always forget how much folks draw this big line between the "professional gig" and ever thing that comes before that. Certainly I can see how when looking forward towards the professional thing, it might seem that way. But I can honestly say for me - looking back - it doesn't seem that way at all. The whole time since the first time anyone asked me to play with them - for me, probably when in middle school, the modern dance teacher had an idea that maybe a student drummer could play something like this one section of a piece on Henry Mancini's "Hatari" soundtrack (Shelly Manne playing pseudo jungle drums on the set) and whatever else they could come up with for this modern dance piece - Ta Da!!! - my first gig! (Actually my first "road" gig - as that dance troupe performed that piece at all of the local elementary schools over the next few months) - then being asked to play with a rock band, then asked to play for a musical (that wasn't part of normal class work) - then a little later getting calls for wedding gigs, then the Ellis band, then more local jazz groups, some touring, sessions, etc. on and on.

And they were all exactly the same - here's an opportunity to play. Do well at it and more will likely follow. The pre-professional opportunities were no less important than the professional ones - in fact the parade of non-professional ones lead directly, seamless to the professional ones.

And to your point - there's no prerequisites. Beyond getting someone to ask you to play with you - then probably more important, making it so they want to play with you again. None of us ever have it all together - it simply isn't possible. So we just put out there what we are able to do - and play with whoever that level of skill "buys" us. For me, always being inspired to play better, so I could play with bettering better players.

To me, it just seems like like one solitary path...
Me too, I never had actual lessons on drumset with a really great teacher. Most of what I know I had to figure out from playing and being around people, mostly after I was out of school.

I get kind of arrogant about it-- like, you had 8 years of lessons with great drummer X, how come I play better than you?

I think there's a belief among students (and hopefully not teachers) that you can learn to play drums, the way one learns to be an engineer... or a doctor. I mean, take all of the classes, all of the tutelage and you can become a doctor - that's how you become a doctor.

But with drumming, no one can take us step be step through the vocabulary building process - the sheer amount of musical listening, the playing with records, the early playing with ensembles. Add to that - it is not a definitive set of skills. Unlike being a doctor - players ( particularly jazz/pop/rock/etc players) create their musical personalities from their personal course of study.

Lessons, instruction, etc. on drum set is excellent - for laying out basics - teaching rhythm, basic hand /feet coordination, etc. - all with the goal of just greasing the wheels for the inevitable self-study that must happen... At least IMO.
 
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