Endorsement deals: Vinnie no longer with Ludwig?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Sakae seem to be on the signing trail.

Went to a Japanese restaurant last night. Drank quite a few of 'em. Vinnie had better watch himself. They're not as much fun the morning after the night before!!

i would hate to hear all the time how my bike brand " was the worst, ugliest, slowest" whatever. even as a running joke, it would get old quick and start to hurt.

I get pissed when people continually tout how fast the red ones are. Why, oh why, did I have to buy a green one?!?!?

 

[XplosiveDrummer]

sorry to keep dragging the thread down, i jumped ahead to post a reply. just got back online after work, soccer for the kids, making dinner...and soon I hope a beer!

Hear hear! I think I may down a couple shots of bourbon myself after all this. One for me and one for Andy. Actually I'll make mine a double lol.

BTW, that "dude" went way way beyond just showing pride for his drums. Nasty & hurtful are mild terms to describe some of his behaviour, especially via PMs.

Subject done as far as I'm concerned, except for Rad's capes (& Ben's cloaks) of course

Jesus, that's really a shame if it went that far and sorry you all had to deal with such a thing. Also cool, though regarding capes and cloaks, that sounds like something I'd rather not know about lol.

 

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Xplosive, I know you missed the whole 'incident' but I think I'd be right if I said that Andy and myself probably got the worst of it. It spilled over onto other sites too (he's now blocked from messaging me on YouTube) and was really personal. He congratulated me after a long-term relationship with a woman I deeply loved ran its course and threatened to find me and physically assault me - two examples of many that I've since forgotten.

For the record (and as my final say in the matter - on this thread at least) I like Mapex drums. Others have bought them based on my recommendation. I think they make great products and their drums are superb value for money. I have no issue with recommending Mapex when it's appropriate. I am in no way denigrating or attacking Mapex as a company and despite my personal dislike of some of their marketing, have nothing against them as a producer of drums.

 

[Aeolian]

There's an interesting subtext here that got lost in the swerve. While a company may not pay for an endorsement, the promotion they do with a signed artist contributes to that artist's public visibility. Now Vinnie may be a no last name needed person amongst hard core drummers with fusion tendencies. But his overall public profile isn't probably anywhere as high as Ringo, Phil Collins, or even Don Henley for that matter. Most folks on the street would probably recognize Ludwig as a brand of drums, so it may have been that it looked like a great deal at the time. Top notch instruments and great PR. But if the PR didn't pan out, then maybe someone like DW that really has the machine going is preferable. Just wondering...

 

[gretsch-o-rama]

Ive also "heard" that Yamaha has some nice prototypes they'ree making for VC.

 

[tamadrm]

Wow...I leave for a short time,and my thread goes off the rails,because of one member.Thanks buddy.BTW,Both Andy and Duncan are friends of mine.

Aeolien--------,I think Ringo has been a household name since the mid 60's.Phil Collins and Don Henley both had hit records and were video princes in the 80's due to VH-1,when the actually played music videos 24 hours a day.Ringo was even in a few music videos

All three could sing(Ringo arguably not very well),and all three,especially Henley wrote hit songs.Collins and Henley are also multi instrumentalists,and all three played with world class bands,that could sell out arenas and stadiums.

Lastly ,they had GREAT management....and individual style.When you heard one of their voices,like it or not,you knew who it was.

I don't know for sure,but I don't think Vinny has a good singing voice,nor song writing skills,which is probably why he plays the drums like tomorrow is just a rumor.

IF...and that's a big IF,he's leaving Ludwig because of logistical support problems,then he would have left Gretsch a long time ago.They have even less of a foot print than Ludwig does and much less capital and resources as far as artist support.

The Gretsch USA factory employs less than 10 people at last count.

The only reason I was even curious and started this thread,is Vinny IS and HAS been a Ludwig guy,and had lots of nice things to say about how his new gear performed and sounded.It was also a VERY short endorsment,before he decided to jump ship,which is NOT his MO.

I have a feeling that his endorsement was being courted...possibly by Yamaha,which would make perfect sense,because of the whole Yamaha /Sakae split.

Lots of drummers didn't know Sakae was making some of their drums,and may now be wondering if Yamaha can now deliver the goods ,as far as top shelf gear.

Seeing the Sultan of Swing,the Prince of Percussion,the Duke of the drum set,Mr Colaiuta(It's my thread and I can use his last name if I want to....deal with it) sitting behind a set of Yamahas, will bolster both brand confinence and sales for the new line of premium drums.

Just an idea.

Steve B

 

[Les Ismore]

Les, it takes no more or less effort to make a Gretsch kit sound 'off' than it does with any other equivalent kit. Gretsch make superb drums but it's very easy to make them sound terrible - don't tune them.

You're very partisan here and it's not productive.

Do you have an allegiance with Gretsch? In the years you've been here I've never seen you post your kit once.

The reality is its a lot easier for me to achieve the sound Im after in a multitude of situations w/quality GRETSCH kits than with comparable LUDWIG kits.

And yes, you are allowed to view that statement as partisan/biased, I give you the OK.

 

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

The reality is its a lot easier for me to achieve the sound Im after in a multitude of situations w/quality GRETSCH kits than with comparable LUDWIG kits.

And yes, you are allowed to view that statement as partisan/biased, I give you the OK.

That's fine Les but I've never seen you play...

 

[Andy]

There's an interesting subtext here that got lost in the swerve.

Absolutely, & I eluded to this in my earlier post. Rarely talked about, but very much a factor. Also, although artists may not be paid, effectively, international touring support is payment in kind. If the drum manufacturer didn't carry the cost, then someone else would have to.

BTW,Both Andy and Duncan are friends of mine.


Steve B

Thank you Steve, & right back at you. I'm fine with Explosive though. He had a valid point to a degree.

The reality is its a lot easier for me to achieve the sound Im after in a multitude of situations w/quality GRETSCH kits than with comparable LUDWIG kits.

I can add a tiny bit of support detail to this, a softer bearing edge peak makes for a drum that's more forgiving to tune. The counter angle is irrelevant, but the peak radius matters.

 

[DrumEatDrum]

IF...and that's a big IF,he's leaving Ludwig because of logistical support problems,then he would have left Gretsch a long time ago.They have even less of a foot print than Ludwig does and much less capital and resources as far as artist support.

The Gretsch USA factory employs less than 10 people at last count.

Just to clarify, everything Gretsch drums, but the name itself, is owned by KMS, which is 100% owned by Fender Guitars, whom are obviously huge.

I'm not sure exactly how Vinnie's deal worked, but Fender/KMS have a HUGE foot print.

Although perhaps the change how Gretsch operated, going from small family company with distribution through KMS to being a bigger part of KMS, rubbed him wrong. But then Ludwig has a similar ownership with multiple levels of parent companies.

Ludwig's parent company is currently being sold, although I doubt that has in way trickled down to artist relations.

 

[tamadrm]

I do realize that,but I was assuming that Fender was supporting Gretsch artist relations as much as Conn/Selmer was supporting Ludwig.......which isn't much.

Steve B

 

[tamadrm]

Absolutely, & I eluded to this in my earlier post. Rarely talked about, but very much a factor. Also, although artists may not be paid, effectively, international touring support is payment in kind. If the drum manufacturer didn't carry the cost, then someone else would have to.

Thank you Steve, & right back at you. I'm fine with Explosive though. He had a valid point to a degree.

I can add a tiny bit of support detail to this, a softer bearing edge peak makes for a drum that's more forgiving to tune. The counter angle is irrelevant, but the peak radius matters.

Andy,wouldn't Ludwig Legacy 3 ply maple/poplar /maple,which have an inner 30 degree bearing edge and a 1/8 " radius roundover be a forgiving drum to tune also.It seems like the ones I played,were a breeze to tune,and seemed to have a pretty decent range.

Unless I just got lucky.

Steve B

 

[bermuda]

IF...and that's a big IF,he's leaving Ludwig because of logistical support problems...

My informant(s) say that's not the reason. But I couldn't swear to it in a court of law.

Bermuda

 

[FoolInTheRain]

Hey guys I can tell you in the case of Sonor they don't pay their artists to be on the roster. As mentioned earlier they will pay for clinics and promotional type things because then they are "working" for the company. I would imagine it is the same for many companies out there.

Also not everyone gets their equipment 100% free. Often its at a discounted rate. I think as others have mentioned its more about a good working relationship and artist support more than anything else.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But this just doesn't make sense to me. With the exception of guys like Bozzio, whose kit takes up more space than some garage apartments I've seen, I don't see how major drum companies can't just gift the gear to some of these high-profile guys. Again, I'm not calling you out, just have a hard time believing this is how business is done. You'd think these companies would see it as a long-term investment.

 

[DrumEatDrum]

I do realize that,but I was assuming that Fender was supporting Gretsch artist relations as much as Conn/Selmer was supporting Ludwig.......which isn't much.

Steve B

I don't know. Difference is Ludwig has all it's own infrastructure, even if it's owned by Conn-Selmer.

Where as with Gretsch, outside of just the making of the USA customs, KMS handles everything else (sales, service, distributions, customer service, non-use made products, etc). So I'd think KMS has a hand in artist relations too.

My informant(s) say that's not the reason. But I couldn't swear to it in a court of law.

Bermuda

Or maybe it's like the old Buddy Rich story where Buddy called the Ludwig factory, and the receptionist didn't know who Buddy was, and Buddy got ticked and ended his endorsement.

OK, I don't know if that's what really happened, but it's the story I heard, and we all know Buddy stopped endorsing drum companies in his later years.

 

[gretsch-o-rama]

The reality is its a lot easier for me to achieve the sound Im after in a multitude of situations w/quality GRETSCH kits than with comparable LUDWIG kits.

And yes, you are allowed to view that statement as partisan/biased, I give you the OK.

Hey I love Gretsch as much as anybody but Id dare say it's actually easier to mess up tuning on a USA gretsch. I find their diecast hoops, even on the renowns, easy to get over tight on one side. Triple flange don't do that as much in my experience.

 

[DrumEatDrum]

I'm not saying you're wrong. But this just doesn't make sense to me. With the exception of guys like Bozzio, whose kit takes up more space than some garage apartments I've seen, I don't see how major drum companies can't just gift the gear to some of these high-profile guys. Again, I'm not calling you out, just have a hard time believing this is how business is done. You'd think these companies would see it as a long-term investment.

They do gift gear to the highest profile guys. But not every endorser on a roster is high profile.
And even with the names, there are limits to how much they can have.

But more to his point, this video better explains the support aspect. I.e. many times when you see a guy playing his drum kit, it might NOT actually be his actual drum kit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLGn38nqHHQ&feature=youtu.be

 

[camcoman]

They do gift gear to the highest profile guys. But not every endorser on a roster is high profile.
And even with the names, there are limits to how much they can have.

But more to his point, this video better explains the support aspect. I.e. many times when you see a guy playing his drum kit, it might NOT actually be his actual drum kit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLGn38nqHHQ&feature=youtu.be

Then there's the Letterman mashup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M65Dx0STe2M

 

[Ian Ballard]

Vinnie did leave, I don't have all the details, but I've heard some cogent speculation from some folks who are sufficiently connected. Nothing I can share here, but it wasn't that he didn't like the drums. Vinnie's always been a closet Ludwig guy.

Bermuda

I'm waging bets he'll be a DW guy soon. Well, I'm pretty broke so my bets will be in Bitcoin. Haha!

Anyway, I was a little surprised he chose Ludwig, not because I think they're poor drums but DW's capabilities are pretty unique in the drum industry in that John Goode is constantly innovating ways to make drums sound however artists want them to sound. They're mixing ply thicknesses, wood types, grain direction, different kinds of reinforcement hoops and honestly NO company can really compare to the level of custom capability they have. They also have pretty killer artist support and it seems like guys stick with them longer than other brands. I mean, you have Peter Erskine who was with Yamaha for like 100 years and he's a DW guy. Chad Wackerman has been with them since about 1984, Jim Keltner longer and JR Robinson seems to love his burl kit enough to be buried with it. It just makes sense to me, being that Vinnie is as picky as he is and knowing the process he went through with Paiste to arrive at his signature models. DW is that kind of company that they'll literally reinvent the wheel to give a legend like Vinnie the sound he's looking for. If he doesn't end up with a DW kit, I'll be highly surprised.

 

[FoolInTheRain]

I'm waging bets he'll be a DW guy soon. Well, I'm pretty broke so my bets will be in Bitcoin. Haha!

Anyway, I was a little surprised he chose Ludwig, not because I think they're poor drums but DW's capabilities are pretty unique in the drum industry in that John Goode is constantly innovating ways to make drums sound however artists want them to sound. They're mixing ply thicknesses, wood types, grain direction, different kinds of reinforcement hoops and honestly NO company can really compare to the level of custom capability they have. They also have pretty killer artist support and it seems like guys stick with them longer than other brands. I mean, you have Peter Erskine who was with Yamaha for like 100 years and he's a DW guy. Chad Wackerman has been with them since about 1984, Jim Keltner longer and JR Robinson seems to love his burl kit enough to be buried with it. It just makes sense to me, being that Vinnie is as picky as he is and knowing the process he went through with Paiste to arrive at his signature models. DW is that kind of company that they'll literally reinvent the wheel to give a legend like Vinnie the sound he's looking for. If he doesn't end up with a DW kit, I'll be highly surprised.

Wouldn't it be funny if he went with SJC or OCDP? I have nothing against either of those companies. Just thought it would be funny to see Vinny playing some ridiculous maple/acrylic hybrid shell drum kit with offset tube lugs.

Sorry if I've offended anybody. It's the chardonay talking at this point.