Educational threads vs. opinions, etc…

Jeremy Crockett

Well-known Member
Do you believe nobody has that in the area of drumming? I'll name about a hundred non-famous experts for you, if you want. Why the ridiculous hangup about that?
Again, no one is saying that.

There is a difference, in kind, between asking for clarification on a particular issue and saying in an accusatory manner "What makes YOU so qualified?".
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Diamond Member
I'm down with that, but I don't get why it's such a hard concept to realize that you're not going to play quarter notes in jazz swing the same way you would in rock or funk. Damn, I'm a bass player and even I get it :D It's called "style."

I think most people were getting that concept...I think the delivery is what people had more issue with...
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Diamond Member

toddbishop

Platinum Member
While it's good to have a questioning mind, extending skepticism to individuals who have demonstrated expertise in an area and are able to back up their statements is a bridge too far. This is commonly the path of conspiracy theorists and others who can't be reasoned with.

People who want to talk their way around someone else's actual knowledge will always do it-- no amount of explanation will change that. The attitude is, if your explanation doesn't somehow stop me from dancing around and ridiculing you, I win. Call it crowderitis. It's an intellectual disease that a lot of people in media are promoting rn. People who are into it will literally ride it all the way to the grave-- see the many thousands of dead/permanently disabled COVID/vaccine "skeptics."

The funny thing is that in the real life drumming world, I know NOBODY like that-- I deal with normal human beings who mostly recognize competence when they see it, and seek competent people out for help doing the thing they want to do, learning to play the drums. This "debate" is literally just a handful of internet people blowing raspberries and jumping around trying to get attention, trying to turn the conversation to the one thing they're comfortable with-- jumping around, blowing raspberries...

For any normal people bothered by someone's "tone": if your goal is to be any kind of real player, you have to get over that. People are different, some of them are cranky, not everyone will bend over backwards to give you free information in a form that pleases you. When you blow those people off, you're only hurting yourself, and your goals for your playing. You can win a social media exchange by proving the guy was a dick, but you are the career loser.

It's like, do you want to learn to play or not? Why aren't you grabbing for every free piece of drumming information you can get?
 

someguy01

Platinum Member
Do you believe nobody has that in the area of drumming?
For all aspects and genres of drumming, yes, I believe there is no one person that is an expert on all of it. As for there being experts on individual areas of drumming from technique to the individual genres, yes, I believe there are experts in specific areas of drumming.
That being said, a forum member with no known credentials and basically posting anonymously is being lauded as an expert based on the post. I take issue with that nonsense.
 

Hewitt2

Senior Member
For all aspects and genres of drumming, yes, I believe there is no one person that is an expert on all of it. As for there being experts on individual areas of drumming from technique to the individual genres, yes, I believe there are experts in specific areas of drumming.
That being said, a forum member with no known credentials and basically posting anonymously is being lauded as an expert based on the post. I take issue with that nonsense.

The “if you have to ask, then you don’t know” mindset in that thread was extremely unhelpful at best. Anyone posting along those lines can’t be surprised when people in good faith ask for clarification.
 

n1ck

Member
Todd, I hear you make the argument on this board all the time that people are anti-information and just wanna believe what they wanna believe and are unwilling to learn from "the experts," etc. etc.

You obviously fancy yourself an expert. Maybe not everyone else does, though. Have you considered that? Whether or not people regard you as an expert is not really your decision to make. The issue seems to cause you a lot of cognitive dissonance.

If I'm going to regard someone as an expert, I need real proof that they're an expert. I appreciate your blog, and I believe you're a very serious musician, but frankly, I have no reason to take ride cymbal advice from you because I'm not sure you play better ride cymbal than me.

Show me that you're the expert and I'll regard you as such.
 

n1ck

Member
Also, the very first time I posted on this board, I posted something related to soloing over forms, and you immediately poo-pooed my post and said I wasn't serious about jazz, and I kind of just think that's your M.O.
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
The “if you have to ask, then you don’t know” mindset in that thread was extremely unhelpful at best. Anyone posting along those lines can’t be surprised when people in good faith ask for clarification.
That was my biggest roadblock too. I understand playing with feeling and I understand placing/playing quarter notes in jazz vs. other styles. What threw me was calling it "swinging" the quarter note. Is that something I already do (but call it something different?) or is that some thing I haven't heard of and never played before either? I was hoping for more clarification, that's all

I can appreciate the links to YouTube videos and I can listen to recordings all day, but talking to other people and asking questions is another part of that journey. Something a discussion forum is designed to do. I don't see why some get so defensive over asking for a better explanation, especially if it's a topic that doesn't have widespread understanding.
 

C. Dave Run

Gold Member
I heard virtually all eighth notes, rather than quarters
I shoulda looked at the sheet music first. I counted it, but that doesnt always work, as is the case here.

Regardless, those hats are definitely not rigid and it feels so right.

I keep thinking about this, as I'm sure lots of folks are. If we were all to play the same pattern of quarters, say fff to ppp, without a model to follow, but kept the same tempo, they should all sound different. One drummers interpretation of fff to ppp will be different than the next. So if 20 of us did it, we should end up with 20 different versions of the same thing. The velocities and spacings would be unique to each individual, even with a common tempo. This, in my mind, is the swing.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Diamond Member
I shoulda looked at the sheet music first. I counted it, but that doesnt always work, as is the case here.

Regardless, those hats are definitely not rigid and it feels so right.

I keep thinking about this, as I'm sure lots of folks are. If we were all to play the same pattern of quarters, say fff to ppp, without a model to follow, but kept the same tempo, they should all sound different. One drummers interpretation of fff to ppp will be different than the next. So if 20 of us did it, we should end up with 20 different versions of the same thing. The velocities and spacings would be unique to each individual, even with a common tempo. This, in my mind, is the swing.

AND.... to add to this,

those 20 different patterns are going to appeal to many different people...so are any of them technically "wrong"? Is any one single pattern THE textbook definition of correct?

bandleader A,B,C,and D might not like my pattern, but E,F,G, and H want to hire me on the spot....
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
AND.... to add to this,

those 20 different patterns are going to appeal to many different people...so are any of them technically "wrong"? Is any one single pattern THE textbook definition of correct?

bandleader A,B,C,and D might not like my pattern, but E,F,G, and H want to hire me on the spot....

That's another reason the anecdotal "evidence" involving stories about guys that got fired over their not swinging right are not actual proof of anything. Sure, they absolutely could have been fired because they had bad time, but it's just as possible they chew with their mouth open or were late to the gig or played a Stage Custom.

Which is another reason why having a shared verbal vocabulary is just as important as a shared musical vocabulary. In a gig situation you don't have the time to wait for someone to hear they should try a different way of swinging. It doesn't need a doctoral thesis-level conversation either, it could be a simple as "less Morello, more Philly Joe" to get the point across. So on one hand I feel bad for these guys that had to "endure" playing next to someone that wasn't feeling the time like they wanted to, but not if they sat silently through a whole gig without trying to figure it out.
 

pinstripe

Active Member
Flog your dead horse, bro.
Well, if we're talking mainly about playing quarter notes with style now, then I guess I'll put down my horse flogging stick thing. But that's pretty scaled back from the claims made in the original OP (first thread), wouldn't you say?
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
That whole ‘expert’-issue tells me 1 thing…

As a general rule, regardless the subject, the people who always start shouting “who the f*ck are you to be called an expert..?” to knowledgeable people, for sure themselves are NOT the experts…

To have that clear for myself, allready helps a lot to filter knowledge from internet forum nonsense…
 

JimmyM

Platinum Member
Well, if we're talking mainly about playing quarter notes with style now, then I guess I'll put down my horse flogging stick thing. But that's pretty scaled back from the claims made in the original OP (first thread), wouldn't you say?
It's a metaphor for "style" :D But seriously, I guess some people just don't have the gift of communication that I have. Some folks can say things in a way that's less convoluted, and I guess I'm an expert at it. What can I tell you? But yeah...style.

That whole ‘expert’-issue tells me 1 thing…

As a general rule, regardless the subject, the people who always start shouting “who the f*ck are you to be called an expert..?” to knowledgeable people, for sure themselves are NOT the experts…

To have that clear for myself, allready helps a lot to filter knowledge from internet forum nonsense…
Right. It burns me up when people who obviously don't know what they're talking about talk like they're experts. Like on Talkbass, when someone says their pick, fingers, and slap sounds all vary wildly in volume, the quickest way to spot the non-experts is when they say, "Add a compressor." Well how about just working on your playing so everything's more even, THEN talk about the compressor?

I have found very little of that on here, though, and what little I have found has been been pretty clearly spotted by now. So points to DW membership.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
This is one bizarre thread full of mental masterbation. I could list all the logical fallacy arguments-which means it isn't even frigging logical but I'll save you the embarrassment. A lot of these comments make no sense-that's pretty hefty coming from me LOL. Lots of putting words in peoples mouths and assuming whose an expert and what people know-when it's an anonymous site. We have expert on experts, authorities of whose authoritative. That's just absurd. I have no knowledge of many on here and even fewer I've seen play-you could be worse than me. It's pretty easy to fool people.

Is knowledge up to debate-you bet you else we'd never progress. Somethings just get modified or added to, but knowledge isn't fixed-it can change and usually does just like music. 12th century French literature isn't dead-study keeps adding and sometimes takes away knowledge. It does so in dramatic ways in sciences. Can groove be defined? You can verbalize what groove is-you can show it by audiovisual. Here's an example of a Wikipedia article-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groove_(music) . You can squabble over merits of article but someone can explain it. Great authors take us on adventures with written word, describe things in glorious detail so future generations can replicate it , and draw our imagination into theirs.

The DW forum isn't an educational part of DW. There is an educational part and we have pro drummers posting in drummers section. Both probably best resources for anyone looking on DW for an education. Now some posters do post educational material but we know their real names and they introduce themselves and experience like Jonathan and others. The thread that started this thread is anonymous-least I don't know. Anyways the vast majority of forum member I've never seen them play or even know if they own a kit-the OP of this thread as example. I'm just a life long hobbyist. I've watched you all squabble over how to count or transcribe something for decades. I wish I'd never mentioned logical fallacies since most of you missed the whole point. It wasn't saying the OP was making one-I assumed it was posted in good faith. Just pointing out we don't know who the person is and just because you've played with famous players mean much-I have played with many pro musicians and Wycliff Gordon (a trombonist of some jazz fame) but I would never call myself a pro. I just asked questions for clarity and explanation-wasn't demanding anything. No one just takes peoples word for anything anymore.
 
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someguy01

Platinum Member
The part that has been most enjoyable about this thread is its based on the 1/4 note swing thread and has completely assumed that that starter of the swing thread is an expert at the subject.
An anonymous individual posted something and it has been treated like gospel. That, is absolutely hysterical to me.
So thanks for that y'all!
 

JimmyM

Platinum Member
The part that has been most enjoyable about this thread is its based on the 1/4 note swing thread and has completely assumed that that starter of the swing thread is an expert at the subject.
An anonymous individual posted something and it has been treated like gospel. That, is absolutely hysterical to me.
So thanks for that y'all!
Was he wrong? He had a lot of support from the lifer jazz drummers on here.
 

someguy01

Platinum Member
Was he wrong? He had a lot of support from the lifer jazz drummers on here.
Not saying that at all, just saying that this thread about questioning experts was born of that thread. So, rando forum poster is an expert. That's hysterical to me.
 
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