Educational threads vs. opinions, etc…

River19

Senior Member
Oh Someguy you posted while I was writing. Good points. Another caveat is you can be a good teacher without being an expert and experts don’t necessarily make good teachers. The PhD faculty at med school where I teceivec my degree were all renown researchers but had no experience teaching though all had to teach med and graduate students . Despite all their expertise most were terrible teachers- but many didn’t put a lot of work in it. Their research is their main source of promotion. Some were really excellent though. It’s not easy being a good educator as I found out myself. I recently joined a choir I thought it would help
my sight reading music and reading words to sing. Damn it’s way more difficult than I expected. Because my hearing issues I’m having a hard time blending . I’m really loud when I speak and sing. Lol I forgot my point- the singing instructor told me he can teach anyone how to sing within 6 months but caveat is only a few will be singing solos. I can see drum teaching similar most can learn how but fewer will be soloing.
This reminds me of the same dynamic of why Larry Bird was such a "meh" basketball coach. Sometimes folks that are particularly good at "the thing" aren't really equipped to be educators on the topic. That happens in all aspects in life.

Clearly drumming can have similar dynamics when it comes to conveying concepts via the written or spoken word.
 

someguy01

Platinum Member
Please tell me.
I asked you, thus the question mark.
Lol, I get it, the very notion offends you deeply
It doesn't offend me in the least.
If you wish to believe everything you're told because said person is "an expert" by all means, go ahead.
I was raised to question authority and think critically about all things and it has served me very well. I simply offer the same to others.
 

Jeremy Crockett

Well-known Member
That's an interpretation you're bringing to the table. I took the comment as someone being passionate about music, you took it as a personal attack.

Is your point that I'm bringing an "interpretation to the table" and you are not? Or is it that we both are bringing these interpretations? Just for the sake of clarity: I read the entire thread but did not post so I did not take anything there as a personal attack.

What I found strange is that "If you don't understand what I'm telling you, that's a 'you' problem" is completely unhelpful if someone is, truly, trying to communicate information. And yet, this very sentiment was met with seemly uncritical approval by several thread participants.


Dangerous how? Not that it ever happens.

People have been removed from major Social Media platforms for expressing contrary opinions and for questioning the so-called experts. How this is not a concern for a lot of folks is mind-boggling. Additionally, shadow-banning is a very real "thing" in the 21st Century.

I'm curious about your extreme skepticism that anyone might actually be an expert on the topic of drumming.

My skepticism applies to more than just the topic of drumming and "extreme" is your interpretation of what I actually posted. Perhaps I missed something and you could, kindly, point out where I said that no one is an expert on drumming?
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
Well with "on line presence" you have to be careful. I was all altruistic to give away everything I knew and paid for on Wikipedia. I'm not an evolutionary biologist but I've read and studied it all through BS,MS, and PhD so I was recruited to help edit Evolution article-it's ironic that the article itself would continuously evolve back and forth through similar versions by new experts. Well this one fellow had even the real evolutionary biologist convinced for a short period but turns out it was a kid in grammar school-smart lil SOB I'll give him credit but he could only pose for so long. Then the med student who faked all his school records and everything but was actually a felon who just recently was released from prison and never graduated from high school. He actually was doing ok but got caught because he seduced a secretary in our department to steal funds from school. The guy had to be super bright to pull such a stunt but sadly misguided. You have to be careful. I told the story a fellow in our program applying for a job with a fake CV and one of the people interviewing was one of us who he went to school with and knew better. Some people have huge gonads and little sense. Honesty and Integrity are words that don't carry as weight anymore. I can go on and on-fraud in research is a huge issue nowadays.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
We have "expert Moderators" that make sure we follow the rules-like we have to be civil, etc.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
This reminds me of the same dynamic of why Larry Bird was such a "meh" basketball coach. Sometimes folks that are particularly good at "the thing" aren't really equipped to be educators on the topic. That happens in all aspects in life.

Clearly drumming can have similar dynamics when it comes to conveying concepts via the written or spoken word.
I befriended this elderly professor in physiology department I spent first two years before I changed, He was a renal physiology expert and actually wrote the section in the book we used. Super nice and really worked on his lectures. But good grief it was just awful. The more he tried to explain it-it all got more confusing then med students were complaining. Super nice super brainy but a terrible teacher.

First two years of my teaching I'd like to give the students a refund because I was terrible-learning how to teach as I taught and it was rough. I was always fair though-and by time I left many students told me they appreciated my efforts and enjoyed my lectures. My students were like my kids to me-I really took an interest in all of them. So many lost souls and most just needed encouragement to find who they are-just like I did. A student can generally tell who cares and that carries so much weight in impacting a student. Passing forward what a lot of people did for me, and I appreciate all of them. Even the profs I was convinced hated my guts because they busted my balls so much-but it was just the opposite I see in hindsight.
 

Rock Salad

Junior Member
I like the science analogy. Hypothesis is presented. Each of us has our own "research lab" in our drum kit. The invitation is to test the hypothesis independently
By the way, I'm reading a book about evolutionary biology lol
 

JimmyM

Platinum Member
In short..:

Is all knowledge up for debate..?

My own answer to the question is ‘no’ btw..

Damn - we need those ‘Expert’ appointed members who were adorned in their titles a while back.

This is where they are needed to sort messes like these out.

@JimmyM, what are your thoughts on the matter?
Ransan, my friend, I am not an expert in drumming only. Music in general, however...you couldn't ask for a better expert/arbiter. I've studied it all my life on both the intellectual and emotional/spiritual planes. I would have already been pontificating the hell out of this thread like I did in the first one had I knew it existed before today. But no time like the present...

I don't ever want to censor anyone seeking enlightenment and knowledge, and I encourage people to question what they don't understand. So no, there should be no censorship of any threads in the pursuit of knowledge. But while questioning of things is perfectly acceptable, some things just are, and rather than waste time rationalizing why you think a 50-year expert player who's been to the big dance when you haven't is wrong, it might be best to listen and learn.

What burns me up about music is it's one of the only things where stone cold beginners with no understanding of how it works whatsoever think they're entitled to have an opinion about how they should be taught. This has given rise to what I call "mall teacher syndrome," where the idea is to keep the student coming back for more lessons, so they let the students dictate the curriculum. Meanwhile, with very rare exceptions, they never get anywhere at all with it. To them, I say listen more and talk WAAAAAAAY less or go home and quit wasting your money since you already know everything.

That thread wasn't one of those situations. That thread was mostly pretty learned people who think that all the emotional and stylistic aspects of music can be intellectualized vs others who are very learned but know that some things about music can't truly be intellectualized, like why Phil Rudd sounds so perfect playing with AC/DC while Simon Wright and Chris Slade were good but not quite as "right" as Phil for the band, despite both being "better" drummers playing the same parts Phil did.

So TLDR, no to censorship, yes to asking questions, and yes to shutting up and listening to the answers once you've asked. Damn skippy there's a difference between someone swinging quarter notes on the ride vs someone not swinging quarter notes on the ride. Could not tell you what that is on an intellectual level, but I know when I hear it and when I don't.
 

C.M. Jones

Diamond Member
Damn - we need those ‘Expert’ appointed members who were adorned in their titles a while back.
Wasn't that strange stretch glorious? As you may recall, I briefly held the title Drum Authority, having no idea how it came about. I thought it meant no one could screw with me. Then revisions were implemented, and I became a Diamond Member. My shield has been stripped. Walking on eggshells is my lone defense. A moving target, I travel with discretion and only in darkness, languishing in perennial fear.

I think I just heard footsteps. Better log off for a while.
 
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Ransan

Senior Member
Wasn't that strange stretch glorious? As you may recall, I briefly held the title Drum Authority, having no idea how it came about. I thought it meant no one could screw with me. Then revisions were implemented, and I became a Diamond Member. My shield has been stripped. Walking on eggshells is my only defense. A moving target, I travel with discretion and only in darkness, languishing in perennial fear.

I think I just heard footsteps. Better log off for a while.
Lol yes I’d say weird stretch that thankfully went away, glorious for the very few that were granted those titles.

But that time gave me a very good understanding of how members graduated, I had no idea before.

Ransan, my friend, I am not an expert in drumming only. Music in general, however...you couldn't ask for a better expert/arbiter. I've studied it all my life on both the intellectual and emotional/spiritual planes. I would have already been pontificating the hell out of this thread like I did in the first one had I knew it existed before today. But no time like the present...

I don't ever want to censor anyone seeking enlightenment and knowledge, and I encourage people to question what they don't understand. So no, there should be no censorship of any threads in the pursuit of knowledge. But while questioning of things is perfectly acceptable, some things just are, and rather than waste time rationalizing why you think a 50-year expert player who's been to the big dance when you haven't is wrong, it might be best to listen and learn.

What burns me up about music is it's one of the only things where stone cold beginners with no understanding of how it works whatsoever think they're entitled to have an opinion about how they should be taught. This has given rise to what I call "mall teacher syndrome," where the idea is to keep the student coming back for more lessons, so they let the students dictate the curriculum. Meanwhile, with very rare exceptions, they never get anywhere at all with it. To them, I say listen more and talk WAAAAAAAY less or go home and quit wasting your money since you already know everything.

That thread wasn't one of those situations. That thread was mostly pretty learned people who think that all the emotional and stylistic aspects of music can be intellectualized vs others who are very learned but know that some things about music can't truly be intellectualized, like why Phil Rudd sounds so perfect playing with AC/DC while Simon Wright and Chris Slade were good but not quite as "right" as Phil for the band, despite both being "better" drummers playing the same parts Phil did.

So TLDR, no to censorship, yes to asking questions, and yes to shutting up and listening to the answers once you've asked. Damn skippy there's a difference between someone swinging quarter notes on the ride vs someone not swinging quarter notes on the ride. Could not tell you what that is on an intellectual level, but I know when I hear it and when I don't.
Boom! There you have it folks, there’s some to unpack but it’s there.
 

jansara

Junior Member
Most professionals I've seen interviewed speak of how little they know and how much they still have to learn. In regards to the thread in question, we were all given a nugget of information and from there it was assumed that nugget came from a "pro" and "expert" yet that individual has given zero criteria for their alleged expertise beyond name dropping. Also, there are no samples of their expert playing of the aforementioned quarter note.
To just swallow something as fact because the individual bloviating claims expertise is not only unwise, but it leads down a perilous path.
Ego is a dangerous thing. Most of the professionals of whom you speak inherently understand the value of their knowledge relative to the amount of knowledge that exists. At the same time, they are confident in what they know and feel no need to bolster their ego through self-aggrandizement or condescending lecture. That's when the damage is done to the novice and the less experienced.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..What makes one an "expert" on drumming? Are they an expert on all facets of drumming and all genres?..


Thats a little a weird combination of questions…

As if, to just use the example again, Erskine should also be an expert on blast beats in order to be considered an expert in general…

Like i said before, that jazz thread is dominated by people who have 0 with jazz…or who barely listen a jazz record in a year….or who think jazz people are elitist people….or who think the whole subject makes no sense, unless proven with a video….and…who probably all would say IF a video would have been posted..: ‘see, you just play a normal quarter note..’..

A big problem on internet forums like this seems to be to just say..: ‘hej, this is something i know nothing about, lets just listen to what is said…and….if interested….i will take a few months to figure things out… and…THEN come back with criticism or a different opinion..’

(That ‘quarter note’-thread is still used only as an example and not as the only reason for this thread btw.. )
 
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