Educational threads vs. opinions, etc…

Matt Suda

Member
This may sound a bit harsh, but, why should a thread about some jazz knowledge be dominated by people who even publicly admit that they have very limited interest of the genre..?

I am not really seeing the logic in this….
Reminds me of the “Should I practice my jazz ride pattern with my left hand?” thread. At one point John Riley even chimed in to essentially say “no” and that didn’t seem to deter some from sharing their contradictory opinions.

It’s funny how these topics seem to make for +10 page threads. I can see why knowledgeable and experienced players wouldn’t want to bother contributing, considering the type of fluff that gets reactions.
 

Rock Salad

Junior Member
I still learned from that thread, and also learned that if I get it solid I will have something special that many can't even conceive the existence of.

p.s. just because someone enjoys highly focused practice, doesn't mean that they don't also spend time just cutting loose and jamming out mistakes and all and having fun at that too
 

Stroman

Platinum Member
Reminds me of the “Should I practice my jazz ride pattern with my left hand?” thread. At one point John Riley even chimed in to essentially say “no” and that didn’t seem to deter some from sharing their contradictory opinions.

It’s funny how these topics seem to make for +10 page threads. I can see why knowledgeable and experienced players wouldn’t want to bother contributing, considering the type of fluff that gets reactions.
That's kind of what I mean when I say this might not be the best venue for "education." There's no forum I've ever seen where an authority drops a nugget of knowledge and everyone bows down. It's a discussion forum and people are gonna discuss, for good or ill.

I understand why those knowledgeable and experienced players wouldn't want to participate, too. I guess it's good to know your audience, and decide whether you want to take the gig or not, right?

I appreciate those who do participate, though, and I especially appreciate those who don't get offended when they are challenged by differing opinions.
 

Ransan

Senior Member
I appreciate the teachers, pros, good-willed students, and knowledgeable members whether it be of the ledger studies itself, or to the research and preservation of drum history.

I will add that, the plighted task of ‘fencing in sage advice’ and having that stick to a worldly forum’s empirical position, it all can blow open with a calm, gentle breezed windfall, due to an additional opinion and/or inquiry.

It really is a tough hill to defend, I’m not sure this is an easily scrutinized discernment that moderation can rationalize and respond to in real time.

I take the information stock as a whole and pick the bones out of it.
 

Caz

Senior Member
Everybody who can play knows how to listen to people and get information from them. It takes learning to trust.
True. There's a line though.. if something seems not right, sometimes that 'tough love' sentiment is just an excuse for people to talk down to folks. There was a bit of that at the jazz conservatoire I studied at, I worried that some students started to seem suicidal. One of the worst teachers for it was constantly telling people if you do what he says your time would get good and you'd get loads of gigs and more people would find you attractive (weird right?!), so people really put up with a lot like shouting, throwing things, wasn't unlike Whiplash and wasn't uncommon for people to cry. Last I heard that guy is on the way out for sexually harassing students behind closed doors. With the best players and the best teachers, it always comes from a place of love for the music, mutual respect, and really wanting you to improve. Lessons are well explained and positive. In my opinion, you at least should know who they are and how they play to give them that trust. Looking back, the most respect I have was for people who said I don't care if it'll make me play better I'm not allowing that guy near me.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
True. There's a line though.. if something seems not right, sometimes that 'tough love' sentiment is just an excuse for people to talk down to folks. There was a bit of that at the jazz conservatoire I studied at, I worried that some students started to seem suicidal. One of the worst teachers for it was constantly telling people if you do what he says your time would get good and you'd get loads of gigs and more people would find you attractive (weird right?!), so people really put up with a lot like shouting, throwing things, wasn't unlike Whiplash and wasn't uncommon for people to cry. Last I heard that guy is on the way out for sexually harassing students behind closed doors. With the best players and the best teachers, it always comes from a place of love for the music, mutual respect, and really wanting you to improve. Lessons are well explained and positive. In my opinion, you at least should know who they are and how they play to give them that trust. Looking back, the most respect I have was for people who said I don't care if it'll make me play better I'm not allowing that guy near me.

That's terrible, but not at all what I was talking about. The other guy said "question everyone and everything", which is very counter productive when it comes to learning to play.
 

jansara

Junior Member

That's terrible, but not at all what I was talking about. The other guy said "question everyone and everything", which is very counter productive when it comes to learning to play.
I'm the other guy. You omitted my qualifier: "If need be".

I wasn't talking about learning to play. I was referring to sidestepping bullshit along the way.
 

Caz

Senior Member
Guess we're all posting from our own perspectives.. my perspective is some things are more important than learning to play, and sometimes people can give 'advice' which is just thinly veiled bullying. It does happen in the jazz scene and I think I've noticed some real red flags of that here in recent days, and wanted to say that it's a good thing that people have questioned that and not just allowed themselves to be spoken down to. I hope it doesn't reinforce pretentious jazz stereotypes, because most players and teachers are lovely, enthusiastic and encouraging.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Guess we're all posting from our own perspectives.. my perspective is some things are more important than learning to play, and sometimes people can give 'advice' which is just thinly veiled bullying. It does happen in the jazz scene and I think I've noticed some real red flags of that here in recent days, and wanted to say that it's a good thing that people have questioned that and not just allowed themselves to be spoken down to. I hope it doesn't reinforce pretentious jazz stereotypes, because most players and teachers are lovely, enthusiastic and encouraging.

I mean, pretentious jazz stereotypes exist because the people who hold them enjoy holding them. It's kind of unavoidable that people doing something at a high level are going to have conflicts with people doing it at a not-high level-- unless the high level people don't even bother to interact. That's usually what they do-- hence the "why do you bother with that" comment MG mentioned. Why talk to people who give you no credit for knowing anything, who just want to quibble with your tone?

I've been around some very assertive teachers, and I never took it as bullying, I took it as a demand to perform better. To me, discounting what someone says because they challenged me, or even hurt my feelings, is how people become mediocre. People who do that are failed students. The real confrontational teaching I've been around was either because someone was really underperforming, or had a big ego that needed to be checked and redirected. Maybe I was just never around any legit bullying or abuse-- though someone witnessing it now might interpret it that way.

I'm the other guy. You omitted my qualifier: "If need be".

I wasn't talking about learning to play. I was referring to sidestepping bullshit along the way.

Oh, when I read

If need be, question everything you read or are told, regardless of what it is, or who it's from; drums, science whatever. Question everything.

it sounded like you were talking about a fundamental approach to doing those things. I don't know what if need be adds to that, you either question everything or you don't.
 

jansara

Junior Member
I mean, pretentious jazz stereotypes exist because the people who hold them enjoy holding them. It's kind of unavoidable that people doing something at a high level are going to have conflicts with people doing it at a not-high level-- unless the high level people don't even bother to interact. That's usually what they do-- hence the "why do you bother with that" comment MG mentioned. Why talk to people who give you no credit for knowing anything, who just want to quibble with your tone?

I've been around some very assertive teachers, and I never took it as bullying, I took it as a demand to perform better. To me, discounting what someone says because they challenged me, or even hurt my feelings, is how people become mediocre. People who do that are failed students. The real confrontational teaching I've been around was either because someone was really underperforming, or had a big ego that needed to be checked and redirected. Maybe I was just never around any legit bullying or abuse-- though someone witnessing it now might interpret it that way.



Oh, when I read



it sounded like you were talking about a fundamental approach to doing those things. I don't know what if need be adds to that, you either question everything or you don't.
I don't live in a black or white world. It stifles creativity and thought. But you're welcome to it if it makes you comfortable.
 

Al Strange

Platinum Member
Guess we're all posting from our own perspectives.. my perspective is some things are more important than learning to play, and sometimes people can give 'advice' which is just thinly veiled bullying. It does happen in the jazz scene and I think I've noticed some real red flags of that here in recent days, and wanted to say that it's a good thing that people have questioned that and not just allowed themselves to be spoken down to. I hope it doesn't reinforce pretentious jazz stereotypes, because most players and teachers are lovely, enthusiastic and encouraging.
Not for the first time; a shining light in the jazz community! Nice one @Caz ! :)(y)
 

Jeremy Crockett

Well-known Member
I mean, pretentious jazz stereotypes exist because the people who hold them enjoy holding them.

Two things can be true at the same time. Folks do love their stereotypes, but those stereotypes more often than not have more than a passing basis in reality. This view (that stereotypes have a legitimate foundation) has been and continues to be staggeringly unpopular. But, the truth often is.

It's kind of unavoidable that people doing something at a high level are going to have conflicts with people doing it at a not-high level-- unless the high level people don't even bother to interact.

How is this not the very definition of Elitism? It is worsened when the "high-level" whatever begins by insisting that he or she has come to "inform the masses" of their complete ignorance and then proceeds to get indignant when questions are asked.

That's usually what they do-- hence the "why do you bother with that" comment MG mentioned. Why talk to people who give you no credit for knowing anything, who just want to quibble with your tone?

From what I can see in the thread in question, "tone" is the least of a lot of posters' comments. I'm not saying it's not a gripe, but it's not the primary issue.

I've been around some very assertive teachers, and I never took it as bullying, I took it as a demand to perform better. To me, discounting what someone says because they challenged me, or even hurt my feelings, is how people become mediocre. People who do that are failed students. The real confrontational teaching I've been around was either because someone was really underperforming, or had a big ego that needed to be checked and redirected.

On this point, we agree.


As far as the OP goes here. We enter MONUMENTALLY dangerous territory when the "experts" get to have their threads sanitized, patrolled, and controlled because they are self-professing experts. If someone wants to be that kind of expert; I would suggest that they go buy some web hosting and set up a WordPress Blog.

At least, this is how I see it.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
How is this not the very definition of Elitism? It is worsened when the "high-level" whatever begins by insisting that he or she has come to "inform the masses" of their complete ignorance and then proceeds to get indignant when questions are asked.

That's an interpretation you're bringing to the table. I took the comment as someone being passionate about music, you took it as a personal attack.

We enter MONUMENTALLY dangerous territory when the "experts" get to have their threads sanitized, patrolled, and controlled because they are self-professing experts.

Dangerous how? Not that it ever happens.

I'm curious about your extreme skepticism that anyone might actually be an expert on the topic of drumming.
 

someguy01

Platinum Member
anyone might actually be an expert on the topic of drumming.
What makes one an "expert" on drumming? Are they an expert on all facets of drumming and all genres?
People are labeled "experts" by others using only college degrees or time within a field as qualifiers not actual unlimited and complete knowledge of a subject.
To assume one knows everything about drumming and is thus an expert would immediately lead me to question that very assertion. Experts should always be questioned because they make mistakes. How many expert epidemiologists got things wrong about Covid?
Most professionals I've seen interviewed speak of how little they know and how much they still have to learn. In regards to the thread in question, we were all given a nugget of information and from there it was assumed that nugget came from a "pro" and "expert" yet that individual has given zero criteria for their alleged expertise beyond name dropping. Also, there are no samples of their expert playing of the aforementioned quarter note.
To just swallow something as fact because the individual bloviating claims expertise is not only unwise, but it leads down a perilous path.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
I think people learn as well as express themselves differently-like memorizing-some sing it, some write it, some use a mnemonic devices to memorize. Then some people speak and explain with their hands, some may draw it out on a black board, some just explain it verbally, some show you a video with explanations and visuals. I think people just learn and explain differently and that's just how we are. It shouldn't really create hard feelings because we are different-that diversity is genetically built into our biology. Knowledge and facts stand on there on but people often shoot the messenger.

An interesting thread is what makes a person “an expert”. Freddie Grubber was a tap dancer turn drummer and became mentor to many. No disrespect to man but I’ve never seen him play like those he mentored. So is he an expert teacher or drummer too?
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
most players and teachers are lovely, enthusiastic and encouraging.

That's true, I'm certainly that way in my teaching practice. Most students are also respectful of expertise, and receptive to information. It's a very special situation, on the forum, to have people responding purely emotionally to the tone of a comment, with zero interest in the content. I never see that in daily life.

What makes one an "expert" on drumming?

Please tell me.

Are they an expert on all facets of drumming and all genres?
People are labeled "experts" by others using only college degrees or time within a field as qualifiers not actual unlimited and complete knowledge of a subject.
To assume one knows everything about drumming and is thus an expert would immediately lead me to question that very assertion. Experts should always be questioned because they make mistakes. How many expert epidemiologists got things wrong about Covid?
Most professionals I've seen interviewed speak of how little they know and how much they still have to learn. In regards to the thread in question, we were all given a nugget of information and from there it was assumed that nugget came from a "pro" and "expert" yet that individual has given zero criteria for their alleged expertise beyond name dropping. Also, there are no samples of their expert playing of the aforementioned quarter note.
To just swallow something as fact because the individual bloviating claims expertise is not only unwise, but it leads down a perilous path.

Lol, I get it, the very notion offends you deeply.
 

C. Dave Run

Gold Member
It's kind of unavoidable that people doing something at a high level are going to have conflicts with people doing it at a not-high level-- unless the high level people don't even bother to interact.
It would behoove both parties if the better player tried to help the lesser player instead of dismiss them. That's where the dick reputation comes from.

At one point you too were new and sucked. Didnt you want to play with better folks and learn?
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
Oh Someguy you posted while I was writing. Good points. Another caveat is you can be a good teacher without being an expert and experts don’t necessarily make good teachers. The PhD faculty at med school where I teceivec my degree were all renown researchers but had no experience teaching though all had to teach med and graduate students . Despite all their expertise most were terrible teachers- but many didn’t put a lot of work in it. Their research is their main source of promotion. Some were really excellent though. It’s not easy being a good educator as I found out myself. I recently joined a choir I thought it would help
my sight reading music and reading words to sing. Damn it’s way more difficult than I expected. Because my hearing issues I’m having a hard time blending . I’m really loud when I speak and sing. Lol I forgot my point- the singing instructor told me he can teach anyone how to sing within 6 months but caveat is only a few will be singing solos. I can see drum teaching similar most can learn how but fewer will be soloing.
 
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