Educational threads vs. opinions, etc…

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
That “quarter note swing”-thread, made me wonder of something..

That thread, to me, had a clear idea, namely someone who has some knowledge to share, shares the knowledge..

Simple as that..

To some people the knowledge makes sense, to some not…or not yet…..or maybe never in their life…

Which is also, simple as that…

That thread can be summerised like this..:

Thread starter stated within a jazz context the importance of learning to make the quarter note swing, followed by 9-10 pages of discussion saying that at least an 1/8 note HAS to be involved in order to swing…

Which was clearly not what thread-starter tried to teach…

What i am wondering about is this…:

Should such educational threads be moderated in a way that the thread-idea stays clear…..or……is everything up for discussion..?

I wonder about this, because someone who at least is curious on learning something regarding the thread-subject, can be completely turned off to the subject after reading 9 pages why the thread-subject makes no sense……which would be a pity….

In short..:

Is all knowledge up for debate..?

(And again, i only use that thread as an example, but wondered within the technique-section more oft about this….)

My own answer to the question is ‘no’ btw..
 

cbphoto

Diamond Member
Is all knowledge up for debate..?

My own answer to the question is ‘no’ btw..
I understand that some topics lend themselves to an increase in knowledge of drums, and some topics are merely for "open discussion" (e.g., the @larryace thread on dreams). Every thread except for a few (e.g., The Classifieds) gets derailed. I've noticed many threads splinter into on-topic discussion and various off-topic discussions. Some threads have a higher signal-to-noise ratio, others don't. It doesn't annoy me and it's easy to skip of the noise, so I vote 'yes'.

Edit: I'm one who frequently posts off-topic material, too. It's just the way my brain works.
 

C. Dave Run

Well-known Member
Is all knowledge up for debate..?
No. Some things are just what they are. There are 360° in a circle. This needs no debate. Plenty of other examples there are.

Swinging quarters is not this type of knowledge. This is more like gravity. Sure it exists, but is different in application based on locale. No one can really explain it, but we know what it does. And to some people it only holds us on the ground while to others it holds the secrets of the universe. This is totally up for debate.
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
First of all, this IS a discussion forum. If someone wants to just put words out into the void for consumption without interacting with an audience they should start a blog or write a book.

As for the swinging quarter thread specifically though....

Even if you think that thread actually started with a clear idea, it certainly wasn't clear to me, and I don't think it was all that clear to a lot of other people either, hence the lengthy discussion. If someone has an interesting idea, or wants to share an opinion that might not be universally shared or is prone to misunderstanding, I'd hope that the point of the thread is to shed some light and perhaps a different approach in order to make it educational.

But if you start a thread with an idea that is acknowledged in the very first post that people might not understand a reasonable person would assume it might take further explanation to help guide people toward understanding. Getting defensive and telling people that if you don't already understand it's because you are or either trying too hard or aren't trying hard enough isn't really helpful.

I get that a lot of what we talk about is esoteric and hard to write, and if we were all sitting together in a room our communication would be easier, but we aren't. We're typing in an internet discussion forum, and our posts should be tailored to suit the forum in which we work.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Some people just have a really different way of engaging with information-- maybe based on how satisfying the idea is to them, or does it agree with everything they think they already know.

People who are in it to learn don't do that. Any time somebody credible told me something that caught my attention, I would always try to work it out in my playing, or in the practice room, whether I agreed with it or not. Demanding satisfaction from the person who told it to me would be ridiculous.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..First of all, this IS a discussion forum..


Well, i saw that one coming ofcourse the moment i posted the thread…..and…..ofcourse you are correct about that…

But, then let me ask you this..

Would you also be the one at a drum clinic who would say something like..:

“Ok Mr. Chambers, i heard you speak, but my opinion on the subject is…………….”

“Ok Mr. Erskine, thanks for sharing the information, but, also after trying to explain, what you say makes no sense..”

Or would you just sit there and listen..?

Because, in my experience, at such places, drummers just sit, listen and learn…

Which is how i think should be..

When a credible, knowledgeable player says something, you listen……simply….because….they know….

To me, arguing with someone who has more knowledge about a certain subject than i have, makes no sense..

Why would that on an internet forum be any different..?

And, is anyone who really wants to learn really helped with reading all those other opinions..?

My opinion is ‘no’..

But that question ‘is someone who really wants to learn helped..?’, is what made me wonder and post this..
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
Well, i saw that one coming ofcourse the moment i posted the thread…..and…..ofcourse you are correct about that…

But, then let me ask you this..

Would you also be the one at a drum clinic who would say something like..:

“Ok Mr. Chambers, i heard you speak, but my opinion on the subject is…………….”

“Ok Mr. Erskine, thanks for sharing the information, but, also after trying to explain, what you say makes no sense..”

Or would you just sit there and listen..?

Because, in my experience, at such places, drummers just sit, listen and learn…

Which is how i think should be..

When a credible, knowledgeable player says something, you listen……simply….because….they know….

To me, arguing with someone who has more knowledge about a certain subject than i have, makes no sense..

Why would that on an internet forum be any different..?

And, is anyone who really wants to learn really helped with reading all those other opinions..?

My opinion is ‘no’..

But that question ‘is someone who really wants to learn helped..?’, is what made me wonder and post this..
Yeah, but that isn't how that thread went down...at all.

But even assuming it did...

If I were at a drum clinic and Dennis Chambers or Peter Erskine said in order to get my ride beat to feel right I needed my make the quarter note swing I'd absolutely be the one to say "wait, what? How do you do that?"

And what if the reply was "My gut tells me no one has ever hired you to play this music."

So since that wasn't particularly helpful in getting me to understand what they meant, I'd probably ask again "how do you make a quarter note swing? I've always thought thought of swing as two uneven eighth notes."

So then what if I'm told "If you are relying on your skip note to swing a band chances are you'll never swing a band in the first place."

Well, already, I'm still no closer to understanding how to make my quarter notes swing, and on top of that I've gotten two kinda condescending smart-ass replies that just because I don't understand what they're saying, I must be a terrible drummer.

I kinda hate you used either one of those guys in your example because both are not only great players, but also wonderful educators, and I'm not aware of either one of them being arrogantly dismissive of someone that wasn't following what they were talking about.

That's the problem here. Dropping a turd in the punch bowl and then complaining when people say their drink tastes funny isn't educational and it isn't helpful. It's also unfortunate that a lot of jazz-related threads often take on a similar tone because a few people post as if jazz is some kind of secret sauce that only they have the recipe for, and if you don't "dig what they're throwin' down" you're some kind of second class citizen.

On the flip side there are some fantastic folks here that are patient and helpful and willing to go out of their way to help other drummers. In the end I guess we learn from both types, but what that lesson is may not be quite the same.
 

nolibos

Member
I read "quarter note swing" and instantly Jimmy Cobb was playing "Freddie Free Loader" in my head. This shift just got much mellower.
 

C.M. Jones

Diamond Member
"Should such educational threads be moderated in a way that the thread-idea stays clear…..or……is everything up for discussion..?"

The "idea" behind a given thread has to be "clear" in the first place. If it isn't, confusion is inevitable, and debate is certain to ignite. If you want readers to accept a premise without protest, providing conclusive evidence of your claims is compulsory. Statements that stand on authority (e.g., we should accept this concept because someone of perceived import embraces it) are referred to as logical fallacies. They don't hold up in formal rhetoric, nor should they carry currency here. Demonstration is much more persuasive than assumption.
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Platinum Member
Well, i saw that one coming ofcourse the moment i posted the thread…..and…..ofcourse you are correct about that…

But, then let me ask you this..

Would you also be the one at a drum clinic who would say something like..:

“Ok Mr. Chambers, i heard you speak, but my opinion on the subject is…………….”

“Ok Mr. Erskine, thanks for sharing the information, but, also after trying to explain, what you say makes no sense..”

Or would you just sit there and listen..?

Because, in my experience, at such places, drummers just sit, listen and learn…

Which is how i think should be..

When a credible, knowledgeable player says something, you listen……simply….because….they know….

To me, arguing with someone who has more knowledge about a certain subject than i have, makes no sense..

Why would that on an internet forum be any different..?

And, is anyone who really wants to learn really helped with reading all those other opinions..?

My opinion is ‘no’..

But that question ‘is someone who really wants to learn helped..?’, is what made me wonder and post this..

I am sure that Mr Erskine, and Mr. Chambers et. al. did not get to where the are by just sitting and listening and not questioning their peers/influences. I know this about Mr. Erskine because I have been to multiple clinics and masterclasses with him where discussions about fundamental drumming ideas happened, and where he always said something tho the effect of :" you have to experiment, and try it for yourself."

Steve Smith told us at a drum set clinic once that: "great things don't happen by just accepting someones idea as the only option"...I think this was about drum kit set up, but it resonated at a much higher level, at least with me

the most credible players are the ones who don't "know", and are willing to admit that they are constantly learning, and changing their mindset and approach to their craft. Another GREAT thing that Wynton Marsalis told us in a clinic when I was in college was "what I know is just a point in time".

so yeah, the point of a discussion forum of any sort is to be evolutionary. It is to be taken for what it is worth in the point of time. It is meant to challenge. Every discussion thread here has a learning point of some kind. EVen the "my worst car" thread is educational in some way...

A public that blindly accepts facts from their elders is a dead, and susceptible public. A public waiting to be manipulated and then taken advantage of.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Platinum Member
Yeah, but that isn't how that thread went down...at all.

But even assuming it did...

If I were at a drum clinic and Dennis Chambers or Peter Erskine said in order to get my ride beat to feel right I needed my make the quarter note swing I'd absolutely be the one to say "wait, what? How do you do that?"

And what if the reply was "My gut tells me no one has ever hired you to play this music."

So since that wasn't particularly helpful in getting me to understand what they meant, I'd probably ask again "how do you make a quarter note swing? I've always thought thought of swing as two uneven eighth notes."

So then what if I'm told "If you are relying on your skip note to swing a band chances are you'll never swing a band in the first place."

Well, already, I'm still no closer to understanding how to make my quarter notes swing, and on top of that I've gotten two kinda condescending smart-ass replies that just because I don't understand what they're saying, I must be a terrible drummer.

I kinda hate you used either one of those guys in your example because both are not only great players, but also wonderful educators, and I'm not aware of either one of them being arrogantly dismissive of someone that wasn't following what they were talking about.

That's the problem here. Dropping a turd in the punch bowl and then complaining when people say their drink tastes funny isn't educational and it isn't helpful. It's also unfortunate that a lot of jazz-related threads often take on a similar tone because a few people post as if jazz is some kind of secret sauce that only they have the recipe for, and if you don't "dig what they're throwin' down" you're some kind of second class citizen.

On the flip side there are some fantastic folks here that are patient and helpful and willing to go out of their way to help other drummers. In the end I guess we learn from both types, but what that lesson is may not be quite the same.

I can not like/love this response enough!!!!!
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Platinum Member
"Should such educational threads be moderated in a way that the thread-idea stays clear…..or……is everything up for discussion..?"

The "idea" behind a given thread has to be "clear" in the first place. If it isn't, confusion is inevitable, and debate is certain to ignite. If you want readers to accept a premise without protest, providing conclusive evidence of your claims is compulsory. Statements that stand on authority (e.g., we should accept this concept because someone of perceived import embraces it) are referred to as logical fallacies. They don't hold up in formal rhetoric, nor should they carry currency here. Demonstration is much more persuasive than assumption.

to me, "moderating education" is another term for propaganda....or even worse, censorship...
 

Stroman

Platinum Member
"Because, in my experience, at such places, drummers just sit, listen and learn…"

I think this logical fallacy is at the root of the issue the OP has with these threads

At clinics, there is absolutely no assurance anyone learned anything. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but we don't measure it, so we don't know. I suspect many questions are left unanswered because people leave them unasked for various reasons. Plus, clinics are as much about seeing heroes up close as they are about education. Entertainment, in other words.

I think it comes down to behaviors we're comfortable with, and those we aren't.
 
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someguy01

Platinum Member
The education should not be moderated, the opinions that put a fog on the education should be
So who decides what opinions are valid and what opinions are a "fog on the education"? That's still quieting voices that may have legitimate questions or ideas but not in the subjective opinion of the opinion moderator.
The interwebs are solely based on porn and inserting one's opinion on things everywhere. I mean, look instatwitface, it's everyone's opinion with little to no facts injected into anything and everything.
Some people explain things very well and are great teachers, some people are great at something but absolutely suck at teaching anyone else that thing. Its not a fault, some do, some teach, some few can do both well.
 

Stroman

Platinum Member
I just now took a look at the referenced thread. I know that one thread wasn't supposed to be the focus of this one, but I can sure see why that poster is getting a lot of pushback.

It's a shame, too, because I think he may be talking about something of value, but his style and delivery are off-putting, IMO. Plus, he seems unable to articulate what he actually means, and falls back on the cop-out plea of, 'If you don't know, you probably won't understand.' Not an actual quote, BTW, just the gist of it.

In this case, I think it's perfectly legitimate for people to question his "facts," because they aren't facts, and his opinion isn't presented with coherent, persuasive argument to support it.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Platinum Member
I said the opposite..

The education should not be moderated, the opinions that put a fog on the education should be….

At least, thats my opinion regarding this…🙂

yeah...I wasn't directly referencing you, I was just sort of "thinking out loud"...because there are very large demographics - especially recently - who think that education should be monitored in certain ways
 

Matt Suda

Member
We probably shouldn’t look for certain educational topics to be uniquely moderated, but people should recognize when someone isn’t trying to be persuasive and is not trying to debate. As another member said, we’re not entitled to a full explanation of anything.

Just move on, start a new thread, etc. instead of insisting the poster isn’t being nice or helpful and continuing to bump the thread to the front page.
 

River19

Senior Member
yeah...I wasn't directly referencing you, I was just sort of "thinking out loud"...because there are very large demographics - especially recently - who think that education should be monitored in certain ways

BTW, I thought your comments in the quarter note thread were solid and I believe some of the gist of what you were saying was "if we both arrive at the same place, who cares how each player gets there?"......meaning for someone to say "THIS is definitively the only 'proper' first step to arrive in this place in the right way" is slightly obtuse IMHO.

When it comes to educational topics there should be some acknowledgement whether implied or overt that everyone learns differently and there are certainly more than a single path to the same destination.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..Plus, he seems unable to articulate what he actually means..


But, thats with all such terms..

Can you, or anyone here, for example put into words what is “groove” or “to groove”..

And with ‘putting into words’ i mean that a beginner player truly understands and feels what “groove” is, only from reading your description..

Almost, or even completely, impossible that is…
 
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