DW collector's kit...sounds great without some lugs in!

Boom

Silver Member
DW collector's kit...Need help with floor tom.

I realize that this post is going to most likely come across as totally crazy. But I'm asking for any advice on this matter. I recently received my custom made DW collector's kit. The 14 x 12 floor tom has an oddity regarding its tuning.

No matter how I tune the drum (just finger tight, or tuning it up by ear, or even using a Drum dial to confirm tension at every lug) there are two lugs that must not be tightened at all or the drum will not tune correctly. And that is true of both the batter head and reso.

Let me explain further. When I tune the drum by ear or using the drum dial, it sounds awesome. But, when I do that, two lug nuts have no tension whatsoever. To be exact, I actually removed the lugs to make sure I wasn't losing my mind. And this is true again, of both heads. I have 4 missing lugs as we speak, yet the heads are in perfect tune and sound awesome.

How is this possible? I actually bought the Drum Dial to confirm that I wasn't losing my mind or my hearing. But the drum dial shows these numbers for the batter head:
Lug 1 - 70
Lug 2 - 72 (yet has no lug at all)
Lug 3 - 69
Lug 4 - 70
Lug 5 - 70
Lug 6 - 70
Lug 7 - 70
Lug 8 - 71.5 (yet has no lug at all)

As you can see, where I actually have no lugs, the tension is higher there than the lugs on either side of those lugs. How is that possible? The drum looks fine (no damage noticeable). NOTE: It did come in a severely damaged box with one of the floor tom leg fittings protruding out of the box. But there is no damage to the fitting that holds the floor tom leg that was sticking out. Nothing.

And again, the drum sounds perfect. The same is true of the resonant head. I have 2 lugs totally removed to prove that I don't need them. The tension and sound there is a little higher than on either side of them. The head sounds perfectly tuned. NOTE: these 2 lugs do not correspond to those on the batter head...ie..they are located differently.

Are both heads just damaged? Are both rims damaged? Collector's kits are supposed to be able to be played out of the box. Ie, they tune them at DW so you can play them when you get them. These lugs were nearly falling out of the drum when I opened the box. I assume the DW guy actually tuned the drum and didn't notice he didn't have to tighten those lugs, because, as he tighted the head, that part of the head just got tighter anyway?. I don't know

So, my question is, how can a drum that shows no damage sound phenomenal while missing two lugs that only have one lug applying tension between them?

To make sure I'm clear, the parts of the head that correspond to having no lugs, have no wrinkles and are actually a little tighter than the ones that have tightened lugs. Also, if you are familiar with the Drum dial, you would know that this floor tom is tuned pretty low.

Thanks for your time reading this.
 
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What you're describing can happen if the drum is out-of-round. Try taking off the heads and use a tape measure to measure the diameter of the drum from a few different points around the shell. Measure the diameter from bearing edge to bearing edge at the widest points from at least two or three different points around the edge. If the diameter varies significantly (more than 1/8th of an inch) from one measurement to any of the others, then the shell is out-of-round and this would explain everything.
 
Thank you, I'll do that now. I was holding off on doing that because the drum sounded good and didn't look damaged. But yeah, I have to rule that out. Thanks.
 
Where these drums sealed when you got them from the distributor? A lot of the time drums are used as demos at the store and the tension rods are adjusted to their preference. Some times these adjustments are on the loose side and if they were shipped, they could have just fallen out from the vibrations. Other than that, the head could also not be tensioned evenly around the circumference pulling the head to one side of the drum more than the other. This will also give faulty indications on those DrumDial thingies.

Dennis
 
Both batter and reso shells measure 13 15/16 inch at their widest and 13 13/16 at their narrowest lugs distances. The 13 13/16 might be a shade under...so both are about 1/8 inch off, which I assume is going to be within acceptable standards...right?
 
Where these drums sealed when you got them from the distributor? A lot of the time drums are used as demos at the store and the tension rods are adjusted to their preference. Some times these adjustments are on the loose side and if they were shipped, they could have just fallen out from the vibrations. Other than that, the head could also not be tensioned evenly around the circumference pulling the head to one side of the drum more than the other. This will also give faulty indications on those DrumDial thingies.

Dennis

Thank you for your response, Dennis. Yes, the drums were sealed except for, I believe, this drum, as they opened it to check for damage since it was sticking out of the box. This was a custom ordered drum set and took over 3 months to get. So I have no reason to believe it was anything but brand new.

If the head was not seated properly by the DW tuning person, if I threw another head on, I should not see the same thing then. I have another 14 in head laying around, I'll throw it on and see what happens.
 
The original batter head is a single play head and I had it tuned very low. I put on a double ply head and tuned it higher...just to alter the conditions.

Now, the same two lugs still are not being used at all...even though the drum is tuned even tighter on lugs right next to them. But now, those two lugs opposing partners are also not being used.

So now I have a floor tom batter head that has 4 of the 8 lugs tightened decently tight and 4 of the lugs not even being used, yet the drum is in tune to ear and to the drum dial in tension...accept some of the lugs not in use actually have a little more tension than the ones being used.

Any ideas of how to proceed? Do I just contact DW I guess?
 
1/8" of an inch out of round is not acceptable on cheap drums so I would not accept 1/16 out of round for the cost of a DW collectors kit.
 
1/8" of an inch out of round is not acceptable on cheap drums so I would not accept 1/16 out of round for the cost of a DW collectors kit.
Agreed. 1/8" is quite a lot, & absolutely not acceptable on drums at that price. It's also most unlikely to be the result of damage either. A ply drum would have to receive a very big impact to equate to that level of distortion, & you're saying there's no sign of visible damage. Ply drums are especially resistant to distortion through impact, as the shell springs back into shape. have you checked the hoops for distortion too? A hoop is more likely to take on a set shape after impact than the shell, but would still show signs of impact damage unless it was crushed by something soft.

Either way, it's a return to manufacturer situation. If you've still got the packaging, take some photo's to give DW the best possible chance of working out what's happened. Good luck.
 
Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'm in the process of contacting DW (via email to their rep out here).

I just didn't want to believe the drum was out of round, even though all logic dictated it had to be because I didn't want to have to wait 3 more months for the problem to be addressed. So I was trying to hold off making that determination until I ruled out pretty much everything else.
 
The shell being out of round is probably not from damage during shipping. I say the wood shell is flexible enough to spring back into it's original shape after getting "squished".
Also, what about the rims? Are the round? If they were squished they wouldn't come back into round completely.
 
Hello Big foot,

I just measured the hoops and they appear to be perfectly round...both top and bottom. I agree with the assertion that this is most likely not due to the shipping damage to the box since nothing was wrong with the paint finish and/or the tom leg fittings.

Thanks
 
I have to agree that 1/8 of an inch out of round is a big deal...especially on a D W kit.They charge ridiculous money for their drums(somebody has to pay for all the free gear they give to endorcers).They should replace those drums because the condition will I think, just worsen over time.

I guess it just goes to show....that everybody lets a few bad drums out the door sometimes.

Steve B
 
My position on the out-of-round tolerance thing is that it comes down to the sound of the drum.

If you're having problems tuning the drum or can't get it to sound good, then it's a problem. But I've also heard drums that weren't perfectly round that sounded great. To my mind, in that case, it's a non-issue. In this case, it seems you're having a problem seating the head on the drum, so I think it's a problem worth getting fixed.

The problem with trying to define a specific fraction of inches out-of-round that's acceptable is you can drive yourself crazy chasing down imperfections that aren't ultimately preventing you from enjoying the drum.
 
The weird thing was that the drum still sounded really good...without 4 of the 20 lugs in the drum. So I still think that's pretty funny...they build such quality that they can send out an out of round drum and it will still sound crazy good.

Anyway, the DW rep asked me to take the drum to the shop and have them confirm that the drum was out of round, which they did (just got back). So the drum is going to be shipped back to DW and I assume a replacement will be made (hopefully much sooner than the original drum manufacture).

No doubt, those collector's kits are very expensive. One of the reasons I like to buy higher end stuff, besides the sound, is to lessen the aggravation I have when dealing with lesser quality stuff. So I do agree with those in this thread that say that a drum that expensive should not be 1/8 in out...and apparently, neither did the Drum shop owner that measured it in 20 seconds and said "yeah, this drum is definitely out of round."

Thanks again for all of your help, you guys helped make this a lot less stressful on me.
 
Boom, when tuning DW's, for best results, you really need to use 2 keys simultaneously, 180 degrees apart, using no more than 1/8 turn at a time. I just can't stess that enough. It's very important to get that head seated slowly and evenly. Extremely important. Those thin shells flex much more than a thicker shell under tension, and have to be tensioned very carefully and SLOWLY and most importantly, EVENLY. I went through the same stuff you described when I first got my DW's. (didn't remove the lugs though). It was a learning curve. I thought the DW drums were finicky to tune, and I eventually figured out that it is because the shells are so thin.

If you turn just one lug a 1/2 or more turn...you will be flexing the shell unevenly, too much at one time, and will end up with wacky DD readings.

It's a learning curve that goes with thin shells. 2 keys 180 degrees apart. Slowly and as evenly as you can go, 2 keys at a time, feeling the tension in your fingers. Getting the head seated perfectly even is the goal. On thin shells, it's absolutely critical to a good tuning.

Thicker shells, you don't have to be nearly as vigilant when reheading your drum. They are much more forgiving.
 
Larry, thanks for your advice. FWIW, I always use two keys at a time for tuning as it clearly speeds up the process and helps to more evenly tune. I will definitely take into consideration your point about tuning slowly and carefully. Again, that drum was out of round though and is going to be sent back. Also, Larry, you might be already be aware, those lugs are the precision tuning lugs...therefore they have more threads and already tune very slowly. 1/8 turn barely doesn't anything to the head with those lugs.

The other drums all tuned up extremely easily and didn't really care how I did them. The drums have reinforcement rings to help with the rigidity.

I mean, shouldn't the Re-rings make it so that the drums don't flex much?

I also don't rely on the DD. But I will say this, it is an awesome tool to prove to yourself that something is wrong with your drum. The last time I tuned the drum, I had every lug at 75 on the DD except one...the one didn't have a lug in it at all and was at 80! And one of the other lugs was removed was still at 75. The drum was jacked up for sure. It was impossible, absolutely impossible, to get the one lug area that was at 80 to ever match the rest of the drum. As I tuned up other areas, it went up...without a lug in it :)
 
Sorry to hear about your problems with the DW shell. Did you check the rest of your shells to make sure it was only the one?

Dennis
 
Audiotech, now quit worrying me. :) yeah, I've been concerned about that, but all the other drums tuned relatively easily...and I checked them afterward with the DD (again, not claiming it has to be used to tune...not starting up those arguments) to see if there was any crazy tension disparity and I didn't see anything yet.

I have a show tomorrow night. After that one, I'm going to meticulously go over the rest of the kit. FWIW, there was another drum that was also busting out of the box it was in...it was the 16 in floor tom. So, if this was caused by shipping (which I agree, is probably not the case) then that drum might be a victim too.

So I'll go over all of them in the next few days. How irritating though, right? To have to break down the whole kit to make sure there are no other problems. Again, I pay for the premium drums to not have to be aggravated. What can you do though? Stuff happens.

Continued thanks to all that helped in this thread. Drummers are cool.
 
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