Drums sounding worse when miked up

[Syncopated_1]

might be why die cast hoop Gretsch were used in the studio and live so often

Think what you describe is a hoop issue ya know they say die cast focus'es and all other kinds of words used to describe
but there they are in the studio's of many- cast hoops-
words like dry, short, etc even the negative 'boxy.. but dc hoops are a focus'ing factor
I think it's maybe the triple flange hoops giving you those problems

One thing to mention - die cast hoops can vary a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer. I have two Tama Starclassic kits (maple, walnut|birch) and Tama's die casts are the closest to perfection I have found. Their control is excellent, and the drums still are very open sounding, with zero nasty ring. Literally drop a mic on them with no treatment.

I also have an SQ2 thin birch kit. On this kit I ordered triple flanged as I have an SQ2 medium maple snare that came with a top die cast hoop. Sonor's die cast hoops are very thick, heavy and very much muting in sound, pretty much choked the life out of it. I sold that hoop and replaced it with a stock Sonor triple flanged and it opened right up.

YMMV

 

[BruceW]

I recommend a drum dial (Yes I know there are better [More Expensive] tuners out there) but the Drum Dial will be simple to use for ANY drummer, it will give you a perfect starting point (if you tune your drums to the recommended tensions) you can always go say.. 5 up or 5 down from their recommended numbers and test again to see if you like that sound better, if not, increment or decrement by 5 more and so on until you find your perfect sound, then write down each drum numbers and voila! you will have a great sounding kit that will not need much help from the sound guy.
I have made cheap kits sound amazing doing this. Now a lot of people like their drums to ring for a long time so they use no muffling (read moon gel or tape or rings on the snare). Others like less sustain so they use muffling, I tend to favor a little bit of muffling because a lot of sustain can be hard to dial properly from a sound guy perspective, or when recording.

The more advance tuners can tune by pitch or note but who really needs that other than Terry Bozio? Don't suffer by trying to tune by ear use the available tools. Then sooner than you realize you will be able to get pretty close without the tool and just need to use the tool to get you all the way.

I'm not certain that the Tama model I have is necessarily any more expensive than the DrumDial or Tune Bot, but it's what I have access to, so that's what I'm gonna try and use, whenever I get to it. Shrug

I'm sure they all work as intended, and probably any would be helpful to me. It's simply taking the time to actually learn and experiment with any of them. And that's on me, not a failure of the devices.

Now that we talk about it, I "might" have a little more time during setup before this Saturdays gig that I might be able to play with the Tama device some. I'm gonna see if I can do a little more reading about using the device in the downtime between now and then.

Thanks for the suggestion and advice. I agree with you re tuning for pitch not being necessary in my situation. The bigger issue is finding a tuning that is resonant for the drum, AND something that I like. Maybe I'll give it a whirl this weekend!

 

[doggyd69b]

I'm not certain that the Tama model I have is necessarily any more expensive than the DrumDial or Tune Bot, but it's what I have access to, so that's what I'm gonna try and use, whenever I get to it. Shrug

I'm sure they all work as intended, and probably any would be helpful to me. It's simply taking the time to actually learn and experiment with any of them. And that's on me, not a failure of the devices.

Now that we talk about it, I "might" have a little more time during setup before this Saturdays gig that I might be able to play with the Tama device some. I'm gonna see if I can do a little more reading about using the device in the downtime between now and then.

Thanks for the suggestion and advice. I agree with you re tuning for pitch not being necessary in my situation. The bigger issue is finding a tuning that is resonant for the drum, AND something that I like. Maybe I'll give it a whirl this weekend!

I have the Tama drum dial (the same as the Ahead I linked to but Tama branded) there is nothing to really learn save for placing the drum dial close to each lug but not touching the rim, and tightening or loosening each lug until they are all at the same recommended number.
Do that on both heads and you WILL end up with a great sounding drum.
You can fine tune from there, like I said go up or down by increments of 5 and see what you end up liking better, then write that number down for future reference and use that.
This might differ slightly if you use different head brands but not by much.
Also there are tricks (called hacks nowadays) to prevent your lugs from loosening once you set them to your preferred tension.
You could spend the time to adjust your drums at home and they (provided you "locked" your lugs) should stay tuned all the way to your gig.

 

[BruceW]

I have the Tama drum dial (the same as the Ahead I linked to but Tama branded) there is nothing to really learn save for placing the drum dial close to each lug but not touching the rim, and tightening or loosening each lug until they are all at the same recommended number.
Do that on both heads and you WILL end up with a great sounding drum.
You can fine tune from there, like I said go up or down by increments of 5 and see what you end up liking better, then write that number down for future reference and use that.
This might differ slightly if you use different head brands but not by much.
Also there are tricks (called hacks nowadays) to prevent your lugs from loosening once you set them to your preferred tension.
You could spend the time to adjust your drums at home and they (provided you "locked" your lugs) should stay tuned all the way to your gig.

Cool enough.

One last question, since you have experience with the device. (Sorry for the derail, folks)

Just now looking at the instructions, and the say to put the drum on a mirror to start. That is NEVER going to happen in my world. Can I just skip to the part of putting the drum on a flat surface, and adjusting to the settings? I would like to think so, still, I'm being a good boy (for once) and reading the instructions, rather than skipping around. I have limited time to try this and want to be as prepared as possible when making my first attempt.

Thanks
(Again, apologies for derailing.... I was starting to search for threads here on using the device, honest!)

 

[Rock Salad]

Don’t forget the candles and incense while you mumble the incantation

 

[DamnSingerAlsoDrums]

Don’t forget the candles and incense while you mumble the incantation

Just to be sure: for a black beauty it's AbracadaBRASS... right?

 

[Palaeographical]

One thing to mention - die cast hoops can vary a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer. I have two Tama Starclassic kits (maple, walnut|birch) and Tama's die casts are the closest to perfection I have found. Their control is excellent, and the drums still are very open sounding, with zero nasty ring. Literally drop a mic on them with no treatment.

I also have an SQ2 thin birch kit. On this kit I ordered triple flanged as I have an SQ2 medium maple snare that came with a top die cast hoop. Sonor's die cast hoops are very thick, heavy and very much muting in sound, pretty much choked the life out of it. I sold that hoop and replaced it with a stock Sonor triple flanged and it opened right up.

YMMV

I thought I didn't like die cast hoops until I picked up a Tama snare. The way they cut and focus the fundamental tone without also sounding like they choke out the resonance or sustain is really remarkable.

 

[doggyd69b]

Cool enough.

One last question, since you have experience with the device. (Sorry for the derail, folks)

Just now looking at the instructions, and the say to put the drum on a mirror to start. That is NEVER going to happen in my world. Can I just skip to the part of putting the drum on a flat surface, and adjusting to the settings? I would like to think so, still, I'm being a good boy (for once) and reading the instructions, rather than skipping around. I have limited time to try this and want to be as prepared as possible when making my first attempt.

Thanks
(Again, apologies for derailing.... I was starting to search for threads here on using the device, honest!)

Mine says nothing about using a mirror (or incantation) just hand tighten the lugs until you can't get them tighter (with your fingers not with a drum key) then place the drum dial about one inch from the rim and tighten to the suggested tension, then go to the lug on the opposite side and do the same, keep doing that on a star pattern until you get all the lugs at the same number (same tension). You have to check the lugs a few times because the tensions change but eventually they will all be the same. Then flip the drum and repeat for the suggested number on the resonant head. sometimes they are the same, sometimes they are different. Just do that and you should be able to tune your drums in no time. later on if you want to get more technical you can tune to pitch using a more better tuner such as the Tune Bot ... I don't need it so you might not either.

 

[SYMBOLIC DEATH]

I have a tension watch and I can remember the instructions say not to use it on the drum with die-cast cast hoops. Fortunately, I never found the drum with die-cast cast hoops and didn't have an issue with my snares with them.

Once I got a tune bot the tension watch was retired and my drums sounded better because i was tuning to a note.

 

[BruceW]

Mine says nothing about using a mirror (or incantation) just hand tighten the lugs until you can't get them tighter (with your fingers not with a drum key) then place the drum dial about one inch from the rim and tighten to the suggested tension, then go to the lug on the opposite side and do the same, keep doing that on a star pattern until you get all the lugs at the same number (same tension). You have to check the lugs a few times because the tensions change but eventually they will all be the same. Then flip the drum and repeat for the suggested number on the resonant head. sometimes they are the same, sometimes they are different. Just do that and you should be able to tune your drums in no time. later on if you want to get more technical you can tune to pitch using a more better tuner such as the Tune Bot ... I don't need it so you might not either.

I tried my Tension Watch last night. (Happy report)

The mirror thing in the instructions was to calibrate the device. I didn't go that route, so I just noted how far off 0 it was to start, and allowed for that when I used it. No incantations necessary.

While I had a little more time than i usually do, I till didn't have enough time to really dig deep while using it. Still, I was very impressed. I did the most basic pass on my toms with it, using the suggested values in the instructions, and they sounded pretty good. First try, only a little tweaking. Even my 13" tom, which has plagued me terribly.

What it really brought to light was what I thought sounded good previously was WAY out of whack, insofar as the tensions on different tension rods. It was crazy.

I also used it on my snare, and I don't think it sounded as good as it could, but I didn't spend as much time as I should have. It still sounded pretty good, and again, there were several rods that weren't close to each other, so that alone showed improvement.

I didn't have time (or inclination, to be honest) to attempt the kick. Not at this time. I need to replace the tension rods from the old t-bar style that have been on that drum since 1980, and I don't really want any of those "T"'s off cockeyed. Yes, I know, that means I'm sacrificing the tuning for the aesthetics. I just need to replace them with conventional rods, and I'll be able to address that properly.

I'm really happy with the results, and am looking forward to spending more time with it. Shouldn't be as much of a time consideration next time that I use it. I expect that I won't need to use it all the time, but to check them every so often. And of course any time that I change the heads. Very cool.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

I tried my Tension Watch last night. (Happy report)

The mirror thing in the instructions was to calibrate the device. I didn't go that route, so I just noted how far off 0 it was to start, and allowed for that when I used it. No incantations necessary.

While I had a little more time than i usually do, I till didn't have enough time to really dig deep while using it. Still, I was very impressed. I did the most basic pass on my toms with it, using the suggested values in the instructions, and they sounded pretty good. First try, only a little tweaking. Even my 13" tom, which has plagued me terribly.

What it really brought to light was what I thought sounded good previously was WAY out of whack, insofar as the tensions on different tension rods. It was crazy.

I also used it on my snare, and I don't think it sounded as good as it could, but I didn't spend as much time as I should have. It still sounded pretty good, and again, there were several rods that weren't close to each other, so that alone showed improvement.

I didn't have time (or inclination, to be honest) to attempt the kick. Not at this time. I need to replace the tension rods from the old t-bar style that have been on that drum since 1980, and I don't really want any of those "T"'s off cockeyed. Yes, I know, that means I'm sacrificing the tuning for the aesthetics. I just need to replace them with conventional rods, and I'll be able to address that properly.

I'm really happy with the results, and am looking forward to spending more time with it. Shouldn't be as much of a time consideration next time that I use it. I expect that I won't need to use it all the time, but to check them every so often. And of course any time that I change the heads. Very cool.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.

I use the tension watch on all of the marchign drums at school as well, and have never "calibrated" it. As long as the needle is on the same mark - and I remember that mark - the heads are even. Have been using it for almost 20 years now, and it is a game changer. I have to change and tune roughly 33 heads every season, and it saves me hours of "tap-tuning" like i used to have to do. When I worked for Ohio State, I had to change 30 drum heads on the tenors every Thursday evening in prep for game day....also a God-send there as well

 

[doggyd69b]

I have a tension watch and I can remember the instructions say not to use it on the drum with die-cast cast hoops. Fortunately, I never found the drum with die-cast cast hoops and didn't have an issue with my snares with them.

Once I got a tune bot the tension watch was retired and my drums sounded better because i was tuning to a note.

See, this is what happens when you use the more better tuner.

 

[BruceW]

Another update from me...I'm now a HUGE fan of this Tama Tension Watch. I had a 2-gig day yesterday. I took the gear out and set it up for the first gig yesterday morning, and tried them, based on using the Tension Watch the previous weekend. They all sounded good, so that was a plus, finished set up, played the gig, all was good.

Packed everything back up, and off to our second gig later last night. We didn't have a bunch of extra time, so I just set it all up, didn't try anything, and sat down to sound check. One of my toms, the 13" that has always plagued me, sounded awful. Now realize I had already played a 2.5 hour show, outside, earlier in the day. Once we got thru the basic sound check, I still had enough time to take that 13" tom off the kit, and use the Tension Watch to go back over it. Sure enough, a few of the rods were out of whack. Just put them all back to the suggested settings, no tweaking, mounted the tom back on the kick, and boom! Back to sounding great, again.

I'm 100% sold, now.

If I'm a lesser drummer cuz I can't get that drum to be resonant and good-sounding by ear, so be it. I can accept that. This thing is awesome. Wish I had one years ago.

 

[Palaeographical]

Tension watches are awesome. You do get the most out of them with high quality drums. The ideal is that if the tension settings are all the same, the tunings are all the same, but if there are imperfections in bearing edge, roundness, or hoop/head setting, then you increasingly get issues where you can either achieve equal tension or equal tuning, but not both.

That being said, my Drumdial was awesome at showing me exactly where all the imperfections were in my crummy shells, which allowed me to pinpoint the problematic tension rods and help me make those drums sound so much better than they ever had before, just from small tuning adjustments.

In contrast, my new Catalina Club is surprisingly even all around every shell, and I can just tighten everything up to a number and they sing like a choir.

I have no comment on how that affects close microphones though, since I haven't been in that world for a long time.

 

[doggyd69b]

Tension watches are awesome. You do get the most out of them with high quality drums. The ideal is that if the tension settings are all the same, the tunings are all the same, but if there are imperfections in bearing edge, roundness, or hoop/head setting, then you increasingly get issues where you can either achieve equal tension or equal tuning, but not both.

That being said, my Drumdial was awesome at showing me exactly where all the imperfections were in my crummy shells, which allowed me to pinpoint the problematic tension rods and help me make those drums sound so much better than they ever had before, just from small tuning adjustments.

In contrast, my new Catalina Club is surprisingly even all around every shell, and I can just tighten everything up to a number and they sing like a choir.

I have no comment on how that affects close microphones though, since I haven't been in that world for a long time.

If you tune to the same tension and are close micing, and you still have a tiny bit of unwanted overtones, a small moon gel or other small dampener will completely eliminate that and your drums will sound perfect, if they don’t, then it is not your drums is your PA mix. In that case play with the EQ settings and remove any effects you might have, if you happen to still want to have those effects, add them one at a time in very small increments until you get perfection.
This should work 99% of the time (getting perfection) but there will always be a venue where no matter what you do you will never be able to get it right. Rest assured that if you do this you will be fine and even better, if you save or write down your mixer settings per venue then you know you will sound great. The “less is more” approach works well in this case.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

If I'm a lesser drummer cuz I can't get that drum to be resonant and good-sounding by ear, so be it. I can accept that. This thing is awesome. Wish I had one years ago.

nope...not a lesser drummer....a smarter drummer. Use the technology that is available.

and if you are like me, I use the Tension Watch to check, but still sue my ears to fine tune once I get the lugs up to the same tension

 

[Stroman]

nope...not a lesser drummer....a smarter drummer. Use the technology that is available.

and if you are like me, I use the Tension Watch to check, but still sue my ears to fine tune once I get the lugs up to the same tension

You know, I've never been interested in the tension watch, but the way you use it makes perfect sense. There ARE situations where tap and tune isn't practical.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

You know, I've never been interested in the tension watch, but the way you use it makes perfect sense. There ARE situations where tap and tune isn't practical.

it is especially useful in a room/space where there is too much noise for tap and tune

or where you have to get a new head on in a short amount of time, and you need it to be evenly tensioned in under 10 minutes

 

[John B]

I assume that when you say you "mike your kit up" we're talking close mics/each individual drum miked?
My 50 years of playing and 35 years of recording drums has taught me that close miking of drums changes the sound of a drum kit radically. Trying to reconcile what one hears from a playing perspective compared to what multiple close mics do to the sound is almost akin to looking at the Mona Lisa from 1" away rather than 10 feet away. I'm always struck by how the "standard" for recording drums has degenerated into a multi-miked extravaganza complemented by dynamics and EQ manipulation that turns the drum kit into something other than what it actually sounds like. But yet as drummers, we obsess over our sound when sitting alone with the kit at home. I've often wondered with how "produced/slick" drum sounds have become both in live sound situations and recording situations, why not just buy a Roland V Drums kit and be done with it. For me, it seems to have gotten to that point. E drums are boring as hell to play, but if the job is just to slog out backbeats with the occasional fancy drum fill who cares.
Point of all this? Your drums are going to sound weird with close mics. I'd venture to guess that your kit probably sounds great. Before second guessing your tuning skills or the need for different drums/heads/etc. My advice would be to start playing with micing your kit up at home and recording it to gain an understanding of what different drum miking techniques can do to your sound.

 

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

I assume that when you say you "mike your kit up" we're talking close mics/each individual drum miked?
My 50 years of playing and 35 years of recording drums has taught me that close miking of drums changes the sound of a drum kit radically. Trying to reconcile what one hears from a playing perspective compared to what multiple close mics do to the sound is almost akin to looking at the Mona Lisa from 1" away rather than 10 feet away. I'm always struck by how the "standard" for recording drums has degenerated into a multi-miked extravaganza complemented by dynamics and EQ manipulation that turns the drum kit into something other than what it actually sounds like.

Definitely...especially at many live gigs where the venue doesn't call for this kind of set up. I often times attribute this too "I have all of these toys, and dammit, I am gonna use them" syndrome by the sound guy

and the whole thing of putting the mics too close to the heads is another factor a lot of people misunderstand I think.

there have been many gigs where the soundguy says:
"that tom is real boingy sounding. Can you tune it down/up etc?"
me: "sure, hold on" {moves the mic back a bit} "how is that?"
sg: " way better"

But yet as drummers, we obsess over our sound when sitting alone with the kit at home. I've often wondered with how "produced/slick" drum sounds have become both in live sound situations and recording situations, why not just buy a Roland V Drums kit and be done with it. For me, it seems to have gotten to that point. E drums are boring as hell to play, but if the job is just to slog out backbeats with the occasional fancy drum fill who cares.

agreed as well...but I don't ever see my self playing an e kit live regularly. I tried it once - at the request of our keyboard/singer - and it was the worst gig I have ever had as far as feeling confident on stage...it felt like playing on a toy...and,. it didn't sound all that great either (I was using the opening act's kit)