Drums sounding worse when miked up

[yammyfan]

I've often thought about trying one. Someone let me borrow one to look at for a short period of time, it wasn't intuitive to me, and in the limited time I had with it (and to be around drums to play with it) I gave up.

Another person has made a Tama Tension Watch available to me to use, without any time frame for its return. Again, it's not intuitive. And yes, I realize I need to take the time to read, and re-read the instructions and work with it. I simply do not have the time in front of a kit to experiment. I cannot set up drums in my home, and my limited time with my gear before a gig is, well, limited It was my hope that I might get a sense of how to use one and then try it after set-up before a gig sometime, but it's just not making sense to me. Yet. Perhaps I'll revisit it again soon.

It's another in a series of "someday, I'm gonna" things. I'm sure you're right, it would likely help.

Fortunately, my gear sounds fantastic thru the PA

Cool beans. I hope you take another look some time.

Haven't seen him around in a while but Drummerworld's own beyondbetrayal posted an easy-to-follow instructional video a few years ago. Check it out if you get your hands on a 'bot again.

 

[doggyd69b]

You might just be hearing something that has to do with the space the drums are in. Last weekend I had two gigs back-to-back. One was out in the open with nothing around me; the next day was with my back to a stone wall. The 16" floor tom had a weird boing coming off of it in the second space because of sound reflections from the wall. Nothing to do with the tuning or the drum itself. A little position tweak helped. You can try twiddling the EQ or the gain to see if it's more locational than something going on with the drum itself.

I have played in places where the drums would only sound good if through a pa. Other places there was so much natural room reverb that the mics just made things worse. Tuning had nothing to do with it , it was just the room ambiance what was either helping me or working against. In the against cases we ended up just using a close mic for the bass drum and that worked out ok.

 

[BruceW]

You might just be hearing something that has to do with the space the drums are in. Last weekend I had two gigs back-to-back. One was out in the open with nothing around me; the next day was with my back to a stone wall. The 16" floor tom had a weird boing coming off of it in the second space because of sound reflections from the wall. Nothing to do with the tuning or the drum itself. A little position tweak helped. You can try twiddling the EQ or the gain to see if it's more locational than something going on with the drum itself.

I'm thinking that can have a lot to do with it. We use the same basic EQ settings for my drums, saved in the PA, for most venue, then our guy tweaks a little, to suit the venue. There is one place that we play once or twice a year where my 13" tom just is way out of whack, thru the mic. I mean WAY out of whack, and booming, and loud. Some funky resonance or something in that little room we're in, at that one place. Only affects that one drum. So strange. Glad I don't have to figure out that EQ/PA stuff!

 

[Morrisman]

Clip on mics can affect the sound of the drum by adding weight to the rim. I have noticed a difference when the mic is placed a long way around from the tom mount. It seems to sound better, less choked, when the mic is attached close to the mount.

 

[doggyd69b]

Mic'ing (and close mic'ing in particular) will highlight a bunch of little inconsistencies that otherwise wouldn't bother us if heard acoustically. I always start my tuning with IEMs off and finish/touch up with the IEMs on.

A lot of guys who have done tons of un-mic'ed or minimally mic'ed gigs have a hard time adjusting from having to tune wide open and fully resonant to project for a whole room, to focussing on a tighter more fundmental-dominated tune for the mics.

If you have the luxury of having a practice space, try to set a small recording rig up and practice your tuning for the mics with that. Your comfort level will drastically improve both on stage and in the studio.

I do not know what your stance on muffling is, but I'll often put a drumdot ( or a tape roll) right under the mic grille, This helps to eliminate the most offensive frequencies and in turn lets the mic free to hear a stronger, purer fundamental. Also, this may seem stupid but I've seen people fail to grasp this simple idea: make sure the mics are pointing at the center of the head, not straight down to the edge...

That and don’t add too many effects when playing live, people try to use the same effects they use when recording and in most cases that won’t work for the specific room.
This guy uses a lot of moongels and closed mics but he is able to achieve basically the same sound live, so kudos to his drum tech:

 

[AudioWonderland]

I know there WILL be exceptions to every rule. But how many Simon Phillips and/or Steve Smith are out there playing day-in/day-out in acoustically favorable conditions? Not that many, I'll tell you that... plus, theirs isn't always a tone that's applicable to all genres.

They can afford to take up a lot of sonic space because, well they are who they are and have the legacy and chops to command having the lion's share of a mix.

For the rest of us Joe-Schmos, it is a good thing to learn how to have a more "compact" easily manageable sonic imprint. It is a skill that will be used often in the real world.

1) They are not taking up a lot of space with their sound. Their playing may be but the drums just sound like drums
2) You do you you but I have never had to "compact" my sound ever. I think you are drinking the Koolaid someone is handing out. Sound guys love the easy button

 

[DamnSingerAlsoDrums]

1) They are not taking up a lot of space with their sound. Their playing may be but the drums just sound like drums
2) You do you you but I have never had to "compact" my sound ever. I think you are drinking the Koolaid someone is handing out. Sound guys love the easy button

I will do me, thank you.

Not drinking any koolaid, although it surely tastes better than some bitterade..

I'm j ust being out there on stages playing over 100 dates/year , and in studios, writing, arranging and producing stuff.

Would you telll James Jamerson he was wrong to put flat strings on his bass and a piece of foam under his bridge to get his legendary and iconic.pillowy Motown sound? I sure hope you wouldn't.
You can definitely have a bigger, bolder and more open sound with a modern active bass with round wound. But there's a reason why every other bass player out there plays with a P bass and flats. It fits so damn well in a LOT of genres.

Drums are similar. But also, drums being acoustic instruments, with sensitive resonating membranes, they really do have the potential to resonate in a displeasing way wich can be a real hasle to chase and correct. They will react differently in every room/venue with no rhyme or reason,. Just peruse the comments here and you'll see that "I struggle with live tuning" is a recurring theme for most posters.

Sorry for giving them real wordl advice.that don't fpass your standards. In the meantime I will continue making my FOH guy, my bandmates and the ticket buyers happy by carrying on what I've been doing.

You are free and welcome to post your own detailed method and educate your fellow drummers.

Oh and Ibefore I forget, the thing Simon Phillips is most known for tuning-wise is for taping a rolled up beach towel to his kick batter and putting a Paint can full of sand inside his bassdrum. So there's that...

 

[Rock Salad]

Only got to do this a couple of times, but tuning on a miced up drum was not harder than tuning an un-miced drum. Predicting issues for mics is hard though. I just cleared the batter of the bad overtone, then put the pitch back with the resonant head. Stressful but do-able. Too much or not enough sustain might be more difficult and take longer than a few seconds though

 

[A J]

Mics.... We love 'em. We hate 'em.

I agree with what others have said. The mic sounds you're having trouble with are probably the sound of the "room" rather than the sound of the drums. The mic only picks up what it "hears" and doesn't make it's own adjustments to the sound.

If I ever have to mic a full kit again, I'm not going to do any close-mic'ing. I'm just gonna mic the kick and place a couple overheads.

 

[PorkPieGuy]

Cool beans. I hope you take another look some time.

Haven't seen him around in a while but Drummerworld's own beyondbetrayal posted an easy-to-follow instructional video a few years ago. Check it out if you get your hands on a 'bot again.

Thanks for posting this. I bought one of these years ago and I never got the hang of it. Maybe I should try it again.

OP here! I’m thinking that sometimes I may be pointing the mic too vertically to the head where’s it’s getting more sound right in front of the rim instead of pointing it towards the center of the drums. I think another part of it is in my disclaimer below.

 

[AudioWonderland]

I will do me, thank you.

Not drinking any koolaid, although it surely tastes better than some bitterade..

I'm j ust being out there on stages playing over 100 dates/year , and in studios, writing, arranging and producing stuff.

Would you telll James Jamerson he was wrong to put flat strings on his bass and a piece of foam under his bridge to get his legendary and iconic.pillowy Motown sound? I sure hope you wouldn't.
You can definitely have a bigger, bolder and more open sound with a modern active bass with round wound. But there's a reason why every other bass player out there plays with a P bass and flats. It fits so damn well in a LOT of genres.

Drums are similar. But also, drums being acoustic instruments, with sensitive resonating membranes, they really do have the potential to resonate in a displeasing way wich can be a real hasle to chase and correct. They will react differently in every room/venue with no rhyme or reason,. Just peruse the comments here and you'll see that "I struggle with live tuning" is a recurring theme for most posters.

Sorry for giving them real wordl advice.that don't fpass your standards. In the meantime I will continue making my FOH guy, my bandmates and the ticket buyers happy by carrying on what I've been doing.

You are free and welcome to post your own detailed method and educate your fellow drummers.

Oh and Ibefore I forget, the thing Simon Phillips is most known for tuning-wise is for taping a rolled up beach towel to his kick batter and putting a Paint can full of sand inside his bassdrum. So there's that...

Smh... I hope your ego is sufficiently stroked.. go look at Simon's toms which is what were talking about. You will find nothing..

This may shock you, but are not the only person who gigs or records. Why do you you speak like you are the final word on how to do things?

 

[BobC]

Martin, did you ever have someone else play your drums on sound check with you in the audience? That's the real judge of the way they sound. It's what matters most; how the audience hears the drums. I understand that we want the drums and cymbals to sound good from where we are sitting.

I always fluff the bandleader off when he says he can hear a little rattle emanating from my drums. He's a recording engineer with good hearing. I always say, nobody in this place is going to hear it or even care, and once the band plays, you'll never hear it. Fortunately, it appears he accepts that explanation.

 

[n2xlr8n]

As a drummer and former touring FOH guy, I show up with my drums tuned, as I'm sure most do.

If the drums are tuned, the space and multipath (equipment) the drums are in will dictate the resonance and harmonics of the kit- my 10x12 is usually the wonky one- the rest is up to the FOH guy. My muffling consists of 2-3 cotton balls in the 10/12 toms and 4-5 in the 14/16 floors.

Most stadiums I've run sound in require very little in the way of EQ or gating of the toms, maybe kick. The cymbals are another story. Smaller rooms? Get your work boots on, lol.

 

[DamnSingerAlsoDrums]

Smh... I hope your ego is sufficiently stroked.. go look at Simon's toms which is what were talking about. You will find nothing..

This may shock you, but are not the only person who gigs or records. Why do you you speak like you are the final word on how to do things?

I'm not strolking my ego, nor am I under the impression that I am the be all end all of anything. Neither should you...

The OP is a fantastic drummer with a good tuning ability, as proven by a few videos of his where his drums sound great. And he is currently playing with a very promising up and coming Country artist.

And YET....

Here he is, unhappy that his drums don't sound as good under mics.

A sentiment echoed by most here. If "Just leave em wide open like so and so" was that obvious a solution, this thread wouldn't have been started.

There are legions of drummers who will adapt to the venue, genres and songs they play by applying more or less muffling and tuning according to how the mics and the chain their signal runs through reacts. Why do you try to make this sound like an incorect way to alter your sound is beyond me.

And pardon me for saying so but mocking those who use various techniques to tame/adjust the sound of their drums is usually done (more often than not,) on these forums, by folks with very little real world experience. If this is not your case, then it is even more unbecoming of you that you'd resort to belittling remarks such as "drinking the koolaid" to describe a way of doing things you do not share.

 

[PorkPieGuy]

Martin, did you ever have someone else play your drums on sound check with you in the audience? That's the real judge of the way they sound. It's what matters most; how the audience hears the drums. I understand that we want the drums and cymbals to sound good from where we are sitting.

I always fluff the bandleader off when he says he can hear a little rattle emanating from my drums. He's a recording engineer with good hearing. I always say, nobody in this place is going to hear it or even care, and once the band plays, you'll never hear it. Fortunately, it appears he accepts that explanation.

That's a good idea Bob. Unfortunately, the only other drummer in the band only knows how to pummel the drums and all-but-crack my cymbals. It's unnerving to watch and listen to him play my kit, so I take my sticks with me wherever I go.

I think what I really need to do is pay better attention to the nuances of my kit before attaching mics to it. I feel like any little minor ring, drop, or flatness, knowing that whatever sounds bad is going to be amplified.

I really, really need a drum tech!

 

[doggyd69b]

I know there WILL be exceptions to every rule. But how many Simon Phillips and/or Steve Smith are out there playing day-in/day-out in acoustically favorable conditions? Not that many, I'll tell you that... plus, theirs isn't always a tone that's applicable to all genres.

They can afford to take up a lot of sonic space because, well they are who they are and have the legacy and chops to command having the lion's share of a mix.

For the rest of us Joe-Schmos, it is a good thing to learn how to have a more "compact" easily manageable sonic imprint. It is a skill that will be used often in the real world.

I never found the tuning of my drums to have much effect against bad room ambiance unless I tuned too high and had zero muffling. I had to place a towel on a very loud snare that was basically way too loud for the venue, (the towel worked perfectly as it only muted very little but somehow got rid of the annoying frequencies, for the bass drum no mic and no change, the toms needed a little muffling as did the cymbals (yes you can muffle cymbals too). I managed to get a very decent sound out of my cheap Ludwig kit.

 

[doggyd69b]

It's always a mystery to me...I struggle with tuning. I try and get them tuned decently enough that I'm at least accepting of the sound.

Then my guy gets done with eq-ing them thru the PA, and they sound awesome.

So I am comfortable with the fact that they will sound good to the audience, even if they bug me on any given night.

I recommend a drum dial (Yes I know there are better [More Expensive] tuners out there) but the Drum Dial will be simple to use for ANY drummer, it will give you a perfect starting point (if you tune your drums to the recommended tensions) you can always go say.. 5 up or 5 down from their recommended numbers and test again to see if you like that sound better, if not, increment or decrement by 5 more and so on until you find your perfect sound, then write down each drum numbers and voila! you will have a great sounding kit that will not need much help from the sound guy.
I have made cheap kits sound amazing doing this. Now a lot of people like their drums to ring for a long time so they use no muffling (read moon gel or tape or rings on the snare). Others like less sustain so they use muffling, I tend to favor a little bit of muffling because a lot of sustain can be hard to dial properly from a sound guy perspective, or when recording.

The more advance tuners can tune by pitch or note but who really needs that other than Terry Bozio? Don't suffer by trying to tune by ear use the available tools. Then sooner than you realize you will be able to get pretty close without the tool and just need to use the tool to get you all the way.

 

[BobC]

That's a good idea Bob. Unfortunately, the only other drummer in the band only knows how to pummel the drums and all-but-crack my cymbals. It's unnerving to watch and listen to him play my kit, so I take my sticks with me wherever I go.

I think what I really need to do is pay better attention to the nuances of my kit before attaching mics to it. I feel like any little minor ring, drop, or flatness, knowing that whatever sounds bad is going to be amplified.

I really, really need a drum tech!

Don't we all! I'm training my grandson. I took him on a day gig this summer. He helped carry small stuff.

 

[BobC]

Martin, why don't you recruit a teenage drummer from the local high school marching band who wants to learn the ins and outs of gigging? Take him with you and let him hump some of your gear and then set them up under your supervision. He could do the sound check if he's good enough, and then you could hear what the drums sound like in the audience. Throw him $25 at the end of the night. You might get lucky and get a good kid, or you might get a slacker dirtbag. It's worth a try.

 

[dwsabianguy]

Honestly, I'd put money on your A1 not putting the mics in great spots (that facing-straight-down-at-the-edge-of-toms) if they sound super ringy. If they're lacking fundamental pitch, I'd bet A1 hasn't spent enough time checking phase with the other microphones. It's amazing how the close mics and overheads can completely cancel out the fundamental if they're out of phase.