Drums sounding worse when miked up

PorkPieGuy

PorkPieGuy

Platinum Member
At this point in my drumming experience, I've come to the conclusion that there will always be some level of misery mystery when it comes to tuning. With that said, I'm curious to see who else out there experiences this regularly:

I can tune my drums and they will sound great; however, I take them to a show and put mics on them, and the next thing you know, the mics will reveal something weird. There will sometimes be a ring somewhere, and other times one of my toms will sound flat. Then there are other times where the the note from a tom will having too much "drop" in it and will need tuning. And just when you think things are sounding good, there will be a sympathetic ring coming from a drum, and the chase begins. I'm mainly talking about close miking, and the mics I use on the toms and snare are the Sennheiser e604, but this has happened with others mics as well. The D6 on the kick always sounds great.

I know that live settings aren't exactly studio settings, and there's going to be some level of weirdness; however, it can get tiring. I guess this is just part of it.

So, whenever you mic your kit up, does it often reveal something you don't initially hear? Is this normal?
 
You might just be hearing something that has to do with the space the drums are in. Last weekend I had two gigs back-to-back. One was out in the open with nothing around me; the next day was with my back to a stone wall. The 16" floor tom had a weird boing coming off of it in the second space because of sound reflections from the wall. Nothing to do with the tuning or the drum itself. A little position tweak helped. You can try twiddling the EQ or the gain to see if it's more locational than something going on with the drum itself.
 
PorkPieGuy said:
At this point in my drumming experience, I've come to the conclusion that there will always be some level of misery mystery when it comes to tuning. With that said, I'm curious to see who else out there experiences this regularly:

I can tune my drums and they will sound great; however, I take them to a show and put mics on them, and the next thing you know, the mics will reveal something weird. There will sometimes be a ring somewhere, and other times one of my toms will sound flat. Then there are other times where the the note from a tom will having too much "drop" in it and will need tuning. And just when you think things are sounding good, there will be a sympathetic ring coming from a drum, and the chase begins. I'm mainly talking about close miking, and the mics I use on the toms and snare are the Sennheiser e604, but this has happened with others mics as well. The D6 on the kick always sounds great.

I know that live settings aren't exactly studio settings, and there's going to be some level of weirdness; however, it can get tiring. I guess this is just part of it.

So, whenever you mic your kit up, does it often reveal something you don't initially hear? Is this normal?
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Mics simply amplify what is there. They make things you don't hear 3 ft away become very audible when you are 3" away. The drums sounds how they sound. Many will just use some variety of muffling to address it if they cannot tune it out.
 
might be why die cast hoop Gretsch were used in the studio and live so often

Think what you describe is a hoop issue ya know they say die cast focus'es and all other kinds of words used to describe
but there they are in the studio's of many- cast hoops-
words like dry, short, etc even the negative 'boxy.. but dc hoops are a focus'ing factor
I think it's maybe the triple flange hoops giving you those problems
 
jda said:
might be why die cast hoop Gretsch were used in the studio and live so often

Think what you describe is a hoop issue ya know they say die cast focus'es and all other kinds of words used to describe
but there they are in the studio's of many- cast hoops-
words like dry, short, etc even the negative 'boxy.. but dc hoops are a focus'ing factor
I think it's maybe the triple flange hoops giving you those problems
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I don't know.. the VAST majority of kits out there have triple flange hoops and are fine. It always comes back to the fundamentals of which tuning is very high on the list. I think its more likely most players over estimate their tuning skills.

That said, the acoustics of the space also matter much more than most realize. After getting my recording room in order, it was amazing how many issues went away. Same with live sound. The differences from one venue to the next is significant
 
alparrott said:
You might just be hearing something that has to do with the space the drums are in.
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I think this is often the case. I play out 5-6 times a month at differing venues (small bars, bigger dance halls, sometimes outside). I use the same mic set up, tuning, and IEM's with very nearly the same mix each time. I'm often struck by why my drums sound different than the gig the night before when everything is virtually the same. The only thing that's not: the room.
 
AudioWonderland said:
Mics simply amplify what is there. They make things you don't hear 3 ft away become very audible when you are 3" away.
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Yep, it's simple acoustics. When I know my drums will be mic'd, I put my ear where the mic sits so I can hear what it will hear, and make necessary adjustments. (Obviously not possible with the kick.)
 
and remember the mics are picking up every soundwave around them, or more specifically, the ones that get into there pattern...not just what they are pointed at

so in @alparrott 's example of the brick wall, the mics were picking up the deflection off of the wall, as well as the drum itself...those frequencies were combining to create that boing that was not happening the night before
 
AudioWonderland said:
Mics simply amplify what is there. They make things you don't hear 3 ft away become very audible when you are 3" away. The drums sounds how they sound.
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Is that true if you close mic? I always thought you’re getting 90% of the sound from the batter head when close micing. Overheads or other two or three mic setups, yea that makes sense.
 
bermuda said:
Yep, it's simple acoustics. When I know my drums will be mic'd, I put my ear where the mic sits so I can hear what it will hear, and make necessary adjustments. (Obviously not possible with the kick.)
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I’ve been miking the batter head of my bass drum more often than not these days. It not only gives you that specific sound (lots of attack and thump, and less of the boooom), but it keeps the mic out of the way of musicians walking in front of your kit on a smaller stage. Win/win!
 
Beyond the tuning of your drums, small incremental changes in mic placement can make a difference.
 
Vintage Old School said:
Beyond the tuning of your drums, small incremental changes in mic placement can make a difference.
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Definitely this.

Cardiod dynamic mics mostly pic up signal directly in front of them, and are subject to proximity effect. Where you position them is critical to the sound you get.

Since you can't always control the room, try and get the best from what you do have control over. Mic position is definitely a part that you can control.
 
bermuda said:
Yep, it's simple acoustics. When I know my drums will be mic'd, I put my ear where the mic sits so I can hear what it will hear, and make necessary adjustments. (Obviously not possible with the kick.)
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Could you please describe exactly how you do that
Do you hit very softly with an ear close to the mic area? Or do you hit normally and get close for the decay?
 
caddywumpus said:
I’ve been miking the batter head of my bass drum more often than not these days. It not only gives you that specific sound (lots of attack and thump, and less of the boooom), but it keeps the mic out of the way of musicians walking in front of your kit on a smaller stage. Win/win!
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same...for the past 7 years, I have been micing my batter bass head in my country/jazz band...mostly b/c I don't have a port on the front head, and that bewilders some sound guys...but it does give a nice mix of thump and sustain. I use an AKG D112 and aim it at a 45º angle to the beater, about 4" away...works 99% of the time
 
Mic'ing (and close mic'ing in particular) will highlight a bunch of little inconsistencies that otherwise wouldn't bother us if heard acoustically. I always start my tuning with IEMs off and finish/touch up with the IEMs on.

A lot of guys who have done tons of un-mic'ed or minimally mic'ed gigs have a hard time adjusting from having to tune wide open and fully resonant to project for a whole room, to focussing on a tighter more fundmental-dominated tune for the mics.

If you have the luxury of having a practice space, try to set a small recording rig up and practice your tuning for the mics with that. Your comfort level will drastically improve both on stage and in the studio.

I do not know what your stance on muffling is, but I'll often put a drumdot ( or a tape roll) right under the mic grille, This helps to eliminate the most offensive frequencies and in turn lets the mic free to hear a stronger, purer fundamental. Also, this may seem stupid but I've seen people fail to grasp this simple idea: make sure the mics are pointing at the center of the head, not straight down to the edge...
 
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DamnSingerAlsoDrums said:
A lot of guys who have done tons of un-mic'ed or minimally mic'ed gigs have a hard time adjusting from having to tune wide open and fully resonant to project for a whole room, to focussing on a tighter more fundmental-dominated tune for the mics.
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That's because you don't have to. Go look at how Simon Phillips or Steve Smith mic their stuff.
 
It's always a mystery to me...I struggle with tuning. I try and get them tuned decently enough that I'm at least accepting of the sound.

Then my guy gets done with eq-ing them thru the PA, and they sound awesome.

So I am comfortable with the fact that they will sound good to the audience, even if they bug me on any given night.
 
AudioWonderland said:
That's because you don't have to. Go look at how Simon Phillips or Steve Smith mic their stuff.
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I know there WILL be exceptions to every rule. But how many Simon Phillips and/or Steve Smith are out there playing day-in/day-out in acoustically favorable conditions? Not that many, I'll tell you that... plus, theirs isn't always a tone that's applicable to all genres.

They can afford to take up a lot of sonic space because, well they are who they are and have the legacy and chops to command having the lion's share of a mix.

For the rest of us Joe-Schmos, it is a good thing to learn how to have a more "compact" easily manageable sonic imprint. It is a skill that will be used often in the real world.
 
yammyfan said:
I haven't annoyed anyone with tune-bot talk for a little while but you're 99 bucks away from solving that problem, my man. Can't overstate what a game changer those thing are.
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I've often thought about trying one. Someone let me borrow one to look at for a short period of time, it wasn't intuitive to me, and in the limited time I had with it (and to be around drums to play with it) I gave up.

Another person has made a Tama Tension Watch available to me to use, without any time frame for its return. Again, it's not intuitive. And yes, I realize I need to take the time to read, and re-read the instructions and work with it. I simply do not have the time in front of a kit to experiment. I cannot set up drums in my home, and my limited time with my gear before a gig is, well, limited ;) It was my hope that I might get a sense of how to use one and then try it after set-up before a gig sometime, but it's just not making sense to me. Yet. Perhaps I'll revisit it again soon.

It's another in a series of "someday, I'm gonna" things. I'm sure you're right, it would likely help.

Fortunately, my gear sounds fantastic thru the PA
 
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