Drums in your Monitor? Yay or Nay?

Bo Eder said:
What kind of idiot sound person puts on compression before hearing anything?

That said, I like a little bit of the drums in my IEMs, but not too much. Drums have a tendency to obliterate the other sounds I need to hear, like the other vocals, bass, a click, a track of music, etc.,….

But if I’m the guy running sound, if I can’t make things sound good with input gain, EQ, and level mixing, then I’d hand the job to somebody more competent. Jumping to dynamic processing before you get it to sound good otherwise is just idiotic. Gain staging is a forgotten skill with digital mixers that give you every bell and whistle, and the ability to “save” set-ups. It’s a shame really. The old school “zeroing of the board/starting from scratch” process is now a lost art.

OTOH - you’re not the guy mixing, and once the show starts there’s nothing else you can do from the drum chair, you’re at the mercy of the engineer. Perhaps having a nice conversation before sound check would iron out some issues.
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Actually there are some common uses for compressors on drums besides controlling dynamics. Adding more attack to the sound for example.
 
DrumDoug said:
I’ve seen several people on here saying they don’t put any drums in their monitors or in-ears. The reason is usually that they can hear their drums and they know what they sound like. That’s true if you’re playing unmicd. As soon as you add mics and put your drums in a PA, add EQ, compression, gates, ect. they sound different. The amount of ring in your snare sounds fine to your ears two feet from the drum, but maybe not to a mic one inch away. I want to know what my drums sound like in the system, not just acoustically. You never know what the soundman may have done to your sound. A couple years ago we broke down our stage at church for a production and had a temporary set up using wedge monitors instead of the usual in-ears. I didn’t have any drums in the monitor. In the meantime, a new sound guy was tweaking the drum sounds. When I finally went back to my in-ears and put some drums in, I was shocked at the sound of my snare. The sound man had put so much compression that my ghost notes were the same volume as my back beats. I had him turn off the compression that morning. We got together later and worked out an appropriate amount. My point being that if I had never put the drums in my in-ears I would have never noticed the problem. Can you imagine how bad my drumming sounded with every ghost note and backbeat the same loud volume? That’s why I want my drums in my monitor. I adjust my playing slightly depending on how they sound. Another reason I put my drums in my in-ears is to keep myself from overplaying while essentially wearing ear plugs. If I feel like I’m playing too hard in order to hear myself, I just turn myself up in my in-ears so I can back off.
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Obviously to each his own regarding what goes in their monitor mix. I get the point you are making - but my philosophy is it is not my job to second guess what things sound like through the system - when IMO nothing short of hearing the actual speakers in the room can tell me that. But again, to each his own. My job is to make the musical performance work - and that means hearing what everyone else is doing (I already know what I'm playing).... driving the bus to me means actually being constantly aware of every last passenger on my bus.

But what mainly struck me about what you wrote was the question..... unless the church in question holds in excess of 1,000 people (in which case, I get it), I simply don't get beating up the audience with mic'd up drums in the mix - when the drums are likely plenty loud to the entire congregation.

Not meaning a slam against your specific situation - just a pet peeve - how the idea of sound reinforcement has fallen by the wayside, in favor of the belief that everything must go through the PA even in rooms holding 200 or 300 people.

But anyway different strokes.
 
dcrigger said:
Actually there are some common uses for compressors on drums besides controlling dynamics. Adding more attack to the sound for example.
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I know that. But like any processor, you have to start from a good solid input signal. And 90% of the time, when you stage the input gains correctly, you may not even need them. The idea is to amplify a sound in-impeded for the most natural sound. The compressor is generally used to control dynamics when you have a player that can’t produce a consistent hit - basically it’s leveling out a players’ inconsistencies.
 
DrumDoug said:
I’ve seen several people on here saying they don’t put any drums in their monitors or in-ears. The reason is usually that they can hear their drums and they know what they sound like. That’s true if you’re playing unmicd. As soon as you add mics and put your drums in a PA, add EQ, compression, gates, ect. they sound different.
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Either way, they sound different in monitors. You aren't hearing how they sound through the PA.
Drums are drums. the main thing I need to know is what the other members of my band are doing, not what my bass drum sounds like with EQ.
Primarily I have lead vocal, lead guitar, stuff like that in my monitor, so I can hear cues and also what the main players in the band are doing.
In larger venues I have a little bass drum as it is the one part of the kit that can disappear into the music without amplification.
All that happens when you put drums in your monitors is that the guitars and vocals have to be made louder in your monitors.
 
dcrigger said:
Not meaning a slam against your specific situation - just a pet peeve - how the idea of sound reinforcement has fallen by the wayside, in favor of the belief that everything must go through the PA even in rooms holding 200 or 300 people.
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As much as I can I play acoustically. That way I can just enjoy the gig, rather than worry of my cymbals are too loud, or if my toms are being heavily gated by the sound person. The first thing that gets amplified (if needed!) is the bass drum.
When I was 20 I used to play a dance hall, holding about 1000 people with no mics on the kit. We were also competing with a DJ who took over when we were on our break. We were playing the top 40 dance hits of the day. It taught me to play clearly, simply and with projection.
 
dcrigger said:
Obviously to each his own regarding what goes in their monitor mix. I get the point you are making - but my philosophy is it is not my job to second guess what things sound like through the system - when IMO nothing short of hearing the actual speakers in the room can tell me that. But again, to each his own. My job is to make the musical performance work - and that means hearing what everyone else is doing (I already know what I'm playing).... driving the bus to me means actually being constantly aware of every last passenger on my bus.

But what mainly struck me about what you wrote was the question..... unless the church in question holds in excess of 1,000 people (in which case, I get it), I simply don't get beating up the audience with mic'd up drums in the mix - when the drums are likely plenty loud to the entire congregation.

Not meaning a slam against your specific situation - just a pet peeve - how the idea of sound reinforcement has fallen by the wayside, in favor of the belief that everything must go through the PA even in rooms holding 200 or 300 people.

But anyway different strokes.
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Thank you! Geez, nothing gets my attention like hearing a band directly from their amps and drums not going through the PA. It’s like hearing stereo with great panning with none of the drawbacks of running a stereo PA in a large venue. If it were possible to do it on every gig, I’d do it.
 
I still haven't figured out how to get along comfortably with high powered pa/monitoring stages. Ideally I'd have only the vocals.
It's great to read all the perspectives here from the more experienced players! Thanks
 
DrumDoug said:
I’ve seen several people on here saying they don’t put any drums in their monitors or in-ears. The reason is usually that they can hear their drums and they know what they sound like. That’s true if you’re playing unmicd. As soon as you add mics and put your drums in a PA, add EQ, compression, gates, ect. they sound different. The amount of ring in your snare sounds fine to your ears two feet from the drum, but maybe not to a mic one inch away. I want to know what my drums sound like in the system, not just acoustically. You never know what the soundman may have done to your sound. A couple years ago we broke down our stage at church for a production and had a temporary set up using wedge monitors instead of the usual in-ears. I didn’t have any drums in the monitor. In the meantime, a new sound guy was tweaking the drum sounds. When I finally went back to my in-ears and put some drums in, I was shocked at the sound of my snare. The sound man had put so much compression that my ghost notes were the same volume as my back beats. I had him turn off the compression that morning. We got together later and worked out an appropriate amount. My point being that if I had never put the drums in my in-ears I would have never noticed the problem. Can you imagine how bad my drumming sounded with every ghost note and backbeat the same loud volume? That’s why I want my drums in my monitor. I adjust my playing slightly depending on how they sound. Another reason I put my drums in my in-ears is to keep myself from overplaying while essentially wearing ear plugs. If I feel like I’m playing too hard in order to hear myself, I just turn myself up in my in-ears so I can back off.
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Playing without your drums in your monitor or specially in your in ears (why would anyone not want to hear their drums? even if you are playing acoustic) is like the equivalent to driving blindfolded. If you can't hear what the audience hears you will definitely overplay or underplay (but mostly overplay). Don't be that guy (or gal).
 
doggyd69b said:
Playing without your drums in your monitor or specially in your in ears (why would anyone not want to hear their drums? even if you are playing acoustic) is like the equivalent to driving blindfolded. If you can't hear what the audience hears you will definitely overplay or underplay (but mostly overplay). Don't be that guy (or gal).
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Noooo, I have done it for years. I know exactly what I'm playing. I can feel the velocity and I can control any impulse to overplay.
That's what everyone should be doing.
Monitors can be chaotic, especially at multi-band events. just because your monitors are not ideal doesn't give you the excuse to overplay .
AND......monitors never let you hear what the audience hears - it's a completely separate routing. And you either use IEMs or a smallish wedge, you aren't hearing the band though a large PA system.
 
Chris Whitten said:
Noooo, I have done it for years. I know exactly what I'm playing. I can feel the velocity and I can control any impulse to overplay.
That's what everyone should be doing.
Monitors can be chaotic, especially at multi-band events. just because your monitors are not ideal doesn't give you the excuse to overplay .
AND......monitors never let you hear what the audience hears - it's a completely separate routing. And you either use IEMs or a smallish wedge, you aren't hearing the band though a large PA system.
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I can control my drumming too but I can see how a lot of others may have difficulties. Also you don't have to put all band members in your monitor mix, just the bare minimum maybe guitar some vocals and some keys, as for your drums maybe bass and snare and the rest much less prominent, but it is also not hard to get a full band monitor mix that doesn't suck. I don't know why everyone is overthinking it. Creating a good mix shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
 
Yup, I put my drums in my IEM's. It's nice to be able to play without having to slam things so I can hear what's going on. Also, it helps with muffling and tuning. Close-mics are great and all, but often what I hear from the cockpit differs with what everyone hears through the PA.

Oh gosh, those stupid compressors and gates. I played a show with my country band last year, and I knew there were going to be issues when the sound guy said, "Yeah, I run sound for a metal band." He had my kit so gated, I was only hearing like every third kick drum. Ghost notes on the snare? Forget it. I told him (nicely of course) that he needed to ease up on the compression on everything because I don't play that loudly. We worked it out eventually, but man, over-compression is horrible. If I hadn't had my drum mix run to my head, I never would have known.
 
Bo Eder said:
What kind of idiot sound person puts on compression before hearing anything?

That said, I like a little bit of the drums in my IEMs, but not too much. Drums have a tendency to obliterate the other sounds I need to hear, like the other vocals, bass, a click, a track of music, etc.,….

But if I’m the guy running sound, if I can’t make things sound good with input gain, EQ, and level mixing, then I’d hand the job to somebody more competent. Jumping to dynamic processing before you get it to sound good otherwise is just idiotic. Gain staging is a forgotten skill with digital mixers that give you every bell and whistle, and the ability to “save” set-ups. It’s a shame really. The old school “zeroing of the board/starting from scratch” process is now a lost art.

OTOH - you’re not the guy mixing, and once the show starts there’s nothing else you can do from the drum chair, you’re at the mercy of the engineer. Perhaps having a nice conversation before sound check would iron out some issues.
Click to expand...
The only way I would use a saved configuration is if we were playing at the same venue, and still just as a starting point. (and after adjusting for a full venue vs initial sound check with the empty venue). Its not a lost art to a lot of us yet.
 
doggyd69b said:
I don't know why everyone is overthinking it. Creating a good mix shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
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Because monitors are notoriously hard. Even major, major bands have bad monitors some nights.
I have the minimum in my monitors, basically the lead parts that tell me what's happening in the music - lead vocal, lead guitar, maybe piano if I have to follow piano at any point. A little bass drum, NOTHING else from the drums. I can hear the bass from his amp near my hi-hat, I can hear the electronic keyboards because those guys tend to have their monitors blasting loud.
 
I have never used in ear monitors. Always a stage monitor. No drums in mix in stage monitors. That would drive the other folks in groups wacky.
 
Chris Whitten said:
Because monitors are notoriously hard. Even major, major bands have bad monitors some nights.
I have the minimum in my monitors, basically the lead parts that tell me what's happening in the music - lead vocal, lead guitar, maybe piano if I have to follow piano at any point. A little bass drum, NOTHING else from the drums. I can hear the bass from his amp near my hi-hat, I can hear the electronic keyboards because those guys tend to have their monitors blasting loud.
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Pretty much in agreement with what I just said...
 
Rattlin' Bones said:
I have never used in ear monitors. Always a stage monitor. No drums in mix in stage monitors. That would drive the other folks in groups wacky.
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Only thing I would have them put in a wedge was the kick, but it had to be a wedge with a 15" speaker. If you go smaller, it sounds like a fart box.
 
Having written my long screed about having drums in my IEMs, and then reading other responses, I realized that when I play venues where we are using a house PA I do it differently. At church and with my bands, I use my phone to mix my IEMs. When I play a multi band festival type thing with a house kit, I usually have a wedge monitor. I only put kick drum and vocals in there. I can usually hear the guitars and bass just fine from the amps on stage. If it’s a house PA but I’m using my own drums, I use my Porter & Davies and only have vocals in the monitor.
 
dcrigger said:
Not meaning a slam against your specific situation - just a pet peeve - how the idea of sound reinforcement has fallen by the wayside, in favor of the belief that everything must go through the PA even in rooms holding 200 or 300 people.

But anyway different strokes.
Click to expand...
Our band is just a little bar band, most venues we play hold 100-150 max. (Occasionally we'll be in bigger rooms.) For the longest time, we didn't mic anything other than the kick and the snare, and rarely much guitar or bass in the mains. Relying on stage reinforcement. We paid attention to other bands playing in the same rooms, and quickly came to the realization that we needed everything in the PA mix, even if it wasn't going to be extremely loud. It makes the whole band sound better, having everything represented in the mains. In our experience.

Yes, once in a while we'll be in such a small room that we revert back to just mic-ing kick and snare. But those times are rare these days.
(We did one such room a month ago, and mic'd kick and overhead, forgetting that the bass player and the keys player use IEMs, and couldn't really hear the snare. Oops! It had been that long since we last used that configuration, we had gone away from wedge monitors in the meantime.)
 
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