Except that hopeful drummers don't really hear that advice.
Drum shaming..
- Thread starter Vandalay
- Start date
beatdat
Senior Member
I'll watch a Drumeo video on occasion, particularly when it's a younger player or a female drummer - I enjoy watching them play and I like seeing them receive the exposure that may not normally get.
What bothers me, though, is that, too often, they emphasize or prioritize "chops" over "groove", not in the sense that they're suggesting that the groove is not important, but more so the ratio between the two. Whereas it used to be "groove for 8 or 16 bars and then add a fill", now it's "groove for 1 bar and add a fill for the next bar" - it's really become a case of "too many notes".
When I'm taking lessons and learning a new song, my teacher insists that I play the groove throughout the entire song without any fills whatsoever, not even a crash, an extra ghost stroke or one tom hit (unless, of course, it's part of the groove). Then, and only then, do we add in the extras. It's tedious, sure, but there's a big, big, difference between being able to hold a groove for one bar as opposed to holding it for the whole song - it takes a lot of control to do that, and I think a lot of new drummers, especially self-taught ones, miss the importance of being able to do that.
It's kind of like starting to put the frame on a house without letting the foundation dry first.
So, no, I don't feel "shamed" by this at all; rather, I feel like they are doing a bit of a disservice to drummers.
But holding a groove is easy, boring, and wouldn't garner many hits, right?
What bothers me, though, is that, too often, they emphasize or prioritize "chops" over "groove", not in the sense that they're suggesting that the groove is not important, but more so the ratio between the two. Whereas it used to be "groove for 8 or 16 bars and then add a fill", now it's "groove for 1 bar and add a fill for the next bar" - it's really become a case of "too many notes".
When I'm taking lessons and learning a new song, my teacher insists that I play the groove throughout the entire song without any fills whatsoever, not even a crash, an extra ghost stroke or one tom hit (unless, of course, it's part of the groove). Then, and only then, do we add in the extras. It's tedious, sure, but there's a big, big, difference between being able to hold a groove for one bar as opposed to holding it for the whole song - it takes a lot of control to do that, and I think a lot of new drummers, especially self-taught ones, miss the importance of being able to do that.
It's kind of like starting to put the frame on a house without letting the foundation dry first.
So, no, I don't feel "shamed" by this at all; rather, I feel like they are doing a bit of a disservice to drummers.
But holding a groove is easy, boring, and wouldn't garner many hits, right?
dmacc_2
Well-known member
I don't comment or watch much of any of those kinds of things in the first place and since I'm nowhere near the caliber of any of the Drumeo players to judge, I don't pay attention.
I do think we've migrated to a chops/lick environment though, but that's another topic altogether.
I do think we've migrated to a chops/lick environment though, but that's another topic altogether.
larryace
"Uncle Larry"
I'm happy that there lots of guys who are interested in the flash, for a number of different reasons.
Let them beat their heads against the wall learning difficult, unemployable skills, while ignoring other "more important for the music" skills.. Drums are not a lead instrument. Chops and licks are the tourist traps for drummers. I know that with basic skills, a lot of heart, and the right mindset, I am very employable. Drums are not a lead instrument, they are support. This could be the hardest realization to make. Young drummers just want to show themselves off basically speaking. It's part of the journey we all go through. For a new a drummer to embrace the role of what a drummer is supposed to be...that just takes time for most of us.
Shame is a choice. It doesn't make up what I consider a healthy mindset.
Let them beat their heads against the wall learning difficult, unemployable skills, while ignoring other "more important for the music" skills.. Drums are not a lead instrument. Chops and licks are the tourist traps for drummers. I know that with basic skills, a lot of heart, and the right mindset, I am very employable. Drums are not a lead instrument, they are support. This could be the hardest realization to make. Young drummers just want to show themselves off basically speaking. It's part of the journey we all go through. For a new a drummer to embrace the role of what a drummer is supposed to be...that just takes time for most of us.
Shame is a choice. It doesn't make up what I consider a healthy mindset.
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GetAgrippa
Platinum Member
Yep we play in bands-playing music that is orchestrated to interact and weave a musical tale-it isn't one instrument but all blending well isn't it. If one stands out-to loud or out of tempo, then it's obviously out of place-unless a solo. On second thought some solos out of place too LOL.
beatdat
Senior Member
Watch how an audience reacts to a drummer grooving his ass off, as opposed to how they react to a drummer throwing in everything but the kitchen sink into their performance. And I'm not talking about just the drummers in an audience, but the audience in general.
If that isn't enough to compel a young drummer to understand the difference between the two types of playing, and the importance of one over the other, I don't know what will.
vyacheslav
Senior Member
It's all click bait. I avoid those videos. especially ones that have a thumbnail of a snare drum with a huge red circle and green arrows pointing at it that says "Stop doing this on your snare drum!!!!!!!!!!!!!". It's almost like reverse psychology. We're going to tell you what you shouldn't do so you better learn this for me or else you'll be a total loser and never have any gigs, friends or a life worth living.
I don't "get" that mindset, and I don't know who is drawn in by that. Imagine yourself in a music store with two studios with drum teachers. One teacher says "If you ever play your hi-hats this way, you are making a terrible mistake and you should stop doing this right away" . The other teacher says "Hey, here's a cool groove that you can have fun playing along with".
Which studio are you going to choose to enter?
I don't "get" that mindset, and I don't know who is drawn in by that. Imagine yourself in a music store with two studios with drum teachers. One teacher says "If you ever play your hi-hats this way, you are making a terrible mistake and you should stop doing this right away" . The other teacher says "Hey, here's a cool groove that you can have fun playing along with".
Which studio are you going to choose to enter?
Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX
Well-known member
that just made LOL in front of my colleagues!! Love it!
would those beats be Country AND Western?
and as I always say... I am playing Devils Advocate because I play many many gigs where an 11/8 beat, or some thing that is fast and blasty is expected...and I get paid.
I also play in a jazz combo, and a cow punk/rockabilly band with just kick, snare and hi hat, so I know lots of money beats...
I just think we are doing the same thing that we are accusing the trick drummers of by saying that there is only one (or two) money beats, and drummers that don't play them exclusively are not pro....
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paradiddle pete
Platinum Member
the shame is the cheesy music that they play along with and claim it's where it's at. not where I'm at ... most of the playing is par for the course. if my drum teacher saw most of these folks he'd have them repeating it over and over and he'd be all over the bad wrist pivot nobody seems to care about anymore.
oldskoolsoul
Silver Member
I never get why discussions like this always end up in that weird assumption that those chop-monsters by definition can not play the most easy money beat or that drummers or are chops guys or money beat guys..
I think, most drummers who complain or nag a lot about those (gospel) chops guys are just not able to play and understand what those guys play..
I quote Matt Garstka once again..;
“If the whole world is allready playing 4/4 money beats, then why would i also need to play them..?”
I think, most drummers who complain or nag a lot about those (gospel) chops guys are just not able to play and understand what those guys play..
I quote Matt Garstka once again..;
“If the whole world is allready playing 4/4 money beats, then why would i also need to play them..?”
bud7h4
Silver Member
Reading some of the posts here, let's not confuse flashy, over the top playing with complex and difficult to learn. They are not necessarily synonymous. Actually flashy drumming is often pretty simple stuff. You can have a ton of empty space while playing something insanely complex.
Rock Salad
Junior Member
I thought you were meaning the pillow in my bass drum and the tape on my ride cymbal and my CB snare drum
cellophanenick
Member
also, most of these people make money/get free stuff from their channels and it's all based on views, subscriptions, followers, etc. so, in some cases the flashy stuff is 'paying the bills'. it's just a different avenue than being a studio/touring musician. I also imagine just about every drummer Drumeo has featured is a successful one in some magnitude.
dmacc_2
Well-known member
While I agree that chops / blazing speeds / high technical displays are what’s focused on social media, it’s interesting that a thread that was originally posted about shaming has resulted in shaming comments in nature.
"if you can't do this, you aren't a real drummer" - "only 1 out of 10 drummers can play this 11/8 groove!" and "you've been playing this groove all wrong!"
It’s no different than the posts here saying or implying the people who display chops/speed and higher technical skills can’t groove or play in gigging bands that require that sort of playing.
Even IF people get into the instrument to develop the highest level of technical mastery and NOT play the same regurgitated song lists that have been done for decades for crowds to dance to, why is that wrong? If that’s their “why” and goal, let that be their thing.
My guess is Jared and any other artist on Drumeo can play circles around most people here… especially me.
I'm not interested in watching chop fests either, but I try to keep in mind not everyone's goals are the same.
"if you can't do this, you aren't a real drummer" - "only 1 out of 10 drummers can play this 11/8 groove!" and "you've been playing this groove all wrong!"
It’s no different than the posts here saying or implying the people who display chops/speed and higher technical skills can’t groove or play in gigging bands that require that sort of playing.
Even IF people get into the instrument to develop the highest level of technical mastery and NOT play the same regurgitated song lists that have been done for decades for crowds to dance to, why is that wrong? If that’s their “why” and goal, let that be their thing.
My guess is Jared and any other artist on Drumeo can play circles around most people here… especially me.
I'm not interested in watching chop fests either, but I try to keep in mind not everyone's goals are the same.
Benthedrummer
Junior Member
The drumming/internet/YouTube relationship is one that will never NOW go away.
I do not care one little bit if someone plays some complex drum arrangement in terms of my own capabilities.........but I can step back and say "wow" when they do it.
I always borrow the complex parts I like on videos like Drumeo and make them my own.
For instance, I took part of the "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" groove and spliced that with this linear groove thing that Sonny Emory did on his Drumeo lesson and made this hybrid thing.
Some of the skills I see are quite confronting when I look at how long I've been playing for, but most things are still very interesting to see and appreciate.
But the issue is with online things is we compare ourselves.
We see some 12 year old kid absolutely smokin' on the kit........but I am me, I always will be.
I embrace a lot of this stuff I see, even though 99% is WAY above my simple little head.
It's a very exciting time for drummers I reckon.
I do not care one little bit if someone plays some complex drum arrangement in terms of my own capabilities.........but I can step back and say "wow" when they do it.
I always borrow the complex parts I like on videos like Drumeo and make them my own.
For instance, I took part of the "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" groove and spliced that with this linear groove thing that Sonny Emory did on his Drumeo lesson and made this hybrid thing.
Some of the skills I see are quite confronting when I look at how long I've been playing for, but most things are still very interesting to see and appreciate.
But the issue is with online things is we compare ourselves.
We see some 12 year old kid absolutely smokin' on the kit........but I am me, I always will be.
I embrace a lot of this stuff I see, even though 99% is WAY above my simple little head.
It's a very exciting time for drummers I reckon.
larryace
"Uncle Larry"
I think it's good to deeply understand what kind of drummer we truly are, and what we're not. And be fine with what we're not. I am no chops/solo guy, that's not who I am. That's not what drives me. I'm not good at it and it holds only passing interest for me.
I accept and am totally fine with the fact that I do only a few things well and I'm not suited for the rest of it. I'll stick to what I can actually do well. I prefer supporting on the drums because frankly, I'm good at understanding what the other musicians need from the drummer, and I freely give it to them. That alone keeps me working, and it's not that hard at all. Drumming doesn't have to be hard all the time. It can be real easy at times. As drummers we don't talk about that too much. It's all about what's hard. Hard to pull off drumming...there are other equally compelling directions to go in. I don't care for over the top drumming in the music I listen to and play. I flat out get repelled by lead drums. I feel like I'm being beat up. I like space in my drum tracks so I can hear the sweet sounding pitched stuff and the vocals.
I'm glad there's plenty of other guys who are pushing the technical envelope, I don't have the right mindset for it and don't feel it at all. There's no shortage of technical drum players. And more power to them. SOMEONE needs to push things.
I accept and am totally fine with the fact that I do only a few things well and I'm not suited for the rest of it. I'll stick to what I can actually do well. I prefer supporting on the drums because frankly, I'm good at understanding what the other musicians need from the drummer, and I freely give it to them. That alone keeps me working, and it's not that hard at all. Drumming doesn't have to be hard all the time. It can be real easy at times. As drummers we don't talk about that too much. It's all about what's hard. Hard to pull off drumming...there are other equally compelling directions to go in. I don't care for over the top drumming in the music I listen to and play. I flat out get repelled by lead drums. I feel like I'm being beat up. I like space in my drum tracks so I can hear the sweet sounding pitched stuff and the vocals.
I'm glad there's plenty of other guys who are pushing the technical envelope, I don't have the right mindset for it and don't feel it at all. There's no shortage of technical drum players. And more power to them. SOMEONE needs to push things.
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Maybe because you like to eat?
GetAgrippa
Platinum Member
Shaming sounds an awful lot like bullying. I've never liked that crap and tend to side with the underdogs-no matter the cause. Needless to say I got beat up a bit growing up-but I gave as good as I got LOL. I don't see how some people think "shaming" someone into something is effective. I've always got more flies with flat beer. I call it the Buddy Rich drum band-meaning the drummer is a central focus of band. It don't work for everyone-there isn't an Ed Shaughnessy Big Band still going like Buddy Rich's band. I guess there are star's in every instrument that are the focus of a band-just like singers. But that don't work for everyone either. I guess if you can parley something into a career and income it's all good.
