Dream Bliss Crash/Rides too Washy?

ohiodrummer1964

Senior Member
Hi,

I'm a novice drummer interested in playing jazz (bop) and rock. I have two kits, one I want to put Remo Fiberskyn's on to use for jazz, and another I want to use with clear heads for rock.

I've been researching cymbals to buy for each kit, since I want a bright sound for rock and a dark soung for jazz. The Dream Bliss series gets a lot of positive comments on here as jazz cymbals, but every sound clip I listen to of the 18, 20, 21 or 22 crash/rides sounds extremely washy to my ears, so much so that the stick definition gets lost in the wash.

I'm thinking about skipping the two ride idea and just going with a Zildjian A 21 Sweet Ride, which gets a lot of good reviews, too, and has been mentioned as being versatile enough for jazz and rock.

So, my question is, would you prefer a Dream Bliss crash/ride or a Zildjian A Sweet Ride for jazz.

Thanks,
Kevin
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
For a Jazz ride, the Dream is where it's at. The 21" A Zildjian is a decent cymbal with wash but I'm not sure how it would work in a combo situation. In a Big Band scenario, I can see that cymbal doing very well.

The Dreams take experience to play well. Almost any cymbal can be played to develop definition if you spend enough time on your cymbal playing - which if you are playing Jazz is an absolute must.

I play a 21" Agop (new to me) a 20" Agop (slightly thicker than the 21") and a 20" Dream. They can all produce definition if you play them in the right way.

What exactly are you looking for sound-wise?
 

ohiodrummer1964

Senior Member
For a Jazz ride, the Dream is where it's at. The 21" A Zildjian is a decent cymbal with wash but I'm not sure how it would work in a combo situation. In a Big Band scenario, I can see that cymbal doing very well.

The Dreams take experience to play well. Almost any cymbal can be played to develop definition if you spend enough time on your cymbal playing - which if you are playing Jazz is an absolute must.

I play a 21" Agop (new to me) a 20" Agop (slightly thicker than the 21") and a 20" Dream. They can all produce definition if you play them in the right way.

What exactly are you looking for sound-wise?
Colin Bailey with the Vince Guaraldi Trio (Cast Your Fate to the Wind, A Charlie Brown Cristmas).
 

ohiodrummer1964

Senior Member
That sounds like a Paiste 602 or a Zildjian A to me.

I think the 21" Sweet Ride is quite close to that sound.
You know, that reminds me that Colin Bailey's idol when he was coming up was Joe Morello, who played Zildjian A's at the time. I should have mentioned Joe too when answering what sound I'm going for.

I guess I'm one of the exceptions who likes a mid to bright sound for jazz. Actually I like a dark sound, too, but I'm trying to save money, so I think the Sweet Ride will work for me, since it can cover my jazz heroes' sounds and rock as well.

Thanks to everyone.
 

ohiodrummer1964

Senior Member
Morello played 6o2s a lot on the records that I've heard. A very similar-sounding cymbal with the vintage As.
That's right, I remember reading that he switched to the 602's after he left Zildjian. I think a few other jazzers used 602's at the time, too, although I can't recall any names off the top of my head.

I'm actually watching the Dave Brubek Quartet playing Take Five in another window and I think those Zildjian A's sound great. Of course I know they changed the formula a bit and the new ones sound brighter than the vintage ones, but the sound clips I've heard of the Sweet Ride seem close enough, I agree with your assessment.
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
In the Brubeck Quartet I'm fairly sure he had switched to Paiste by that point. The point is though that the Paiste 6o2s were in some respects very similar to the As. Both B20 and constructed in a similar manner.

It's not my sound but it's a perfectly good one. Vintage As can be had quite cheaply on eBay if you look.
 

K.Howden

Senior Member
Hey, how are you? I'm probably a bit late on the waggon now, but ahh well!

Duncan mentions an important point, in that the Dream's (and many other cymbals besides) take a certain amount of time to get used to. I've had my 20" Bliss ride for fifteen months now, and I'd say it took me a good month or two to really get a handle on it and every so often it still suprises me with what you can get out of it sound pallette wise.

To narrow it down a little, you'd want to get to grips with how the cymbal reacts to these three criteria; velocity of the stroke you use, where on the bow/bell you place your stroke, the portion of the stick you use to connect your stick to the cymbal i.e. tip, shoulder or a combination. If you can figure out exactly how it reacts to each of those and how they relate to each other, you'll be able to use them sub-conciously (like you would with the rudiments), then the world is your oyster, as they say. If that the end of that you're still unhappy with the sound it produces then you could return it or sell it on.

It has been mentioned in nearly every Dream thread (usually by me lateley!), that there's quite the variation between the sound within the same series model and size, thus, they are cymbals you really must try out in person to find the right one. What you heard on that cymbal may not be true for another specimen so to speak. Be mindeful too that cymbals (especially those that have been extensivley hammered) will take a few months to "mellow out" and become more workable sound-wise.

I hope that's of some help.

From one Kev to another Kev; I hope you're having a fantastic weekend!
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
Kev (Howden!) - great post.

The other day I went up to London to trade a cymbal with another drummer. Great guy, plays Jazz around London and is seriously good. We swapped our cymbals, commented on the weight and we said to each other (almost simultaneously):

'I'll know if I like it in a few months'.

First impressions definitely count with cymbals. I'm very pleased with the 21" Agop I picked up (love it, it's thin, it's dark) but I have no idea how to get the best out of it yet. All of my cymbals are owned for at least a few months before I consider whether or not to trade and usually I can do straight trades because I only deal with high-quality cymbals if I can help it.

I bought a Dream for £75 on eBay back in March. It's definitely a keeper because I've removed the logo! It's desperately thin and very dark. It makes a wonderful crash, despite being a 20" ride (ostensibly). I still have no idea how to get the best out of it. I experiment every day with my older 20" Agop that I've owned since 2005. I still have no real idea how to get the best out of it and I've played it practically every day for seven years.

Cymbals are magical things. One day, you sound terrible. The next day, you sound like God. There really is that kind of magic that comes from (especially handmade) cymbals when the planets align.
 

Drumolator

Platinum Member
Almost all crash-rides are washy; that is why they are crashable. For acoustic jazz that may not be a problem. Peace and goodwill.
 

K.Howden

Senior Member
Why thank you Duncan.

Hmm, I didn't even get into: stick sizes, weights, tip shape, taper, material...oh god...and then there's dampening, sizzle chains...it goes on. I've got a pair of Vater 7a's that became soaked when my house flooded back in 2008. They become quite soft (almost like maple) and draw such a soft yet defined sound out of the ride, great for uptempo jazz.

It's definitely a keeper because I've removed the logo!|QUOTE]

Aha! I do the same thing for my keepers! I thought I was going a little stirr, as no other drummer I've encountered does that, good to know I'm not alone.

Hope you're keeping well,

Kev
 

ohiodrummer1964

Senior Member
Hey, how are you? I'm probably a bit late on the waggon now, but ahh well!

Duncan mentions an important point, in that the Dream's (and many other cymbals besides) take a certain amount of time to get used to. I've had my 20" Bliss ride for fifteen months now, and I'd say it took me a good month or two to really get a handle on it and every so often it still suprises me with what you can get out of it sound pallette wise.

To narrow it down a little, you'd want to get to grips with how the cymbal reacts to these three criteria; velocity of the stroke you use, where on the bow/bell you place your stroke, the portion of the stick you use to connect your stick to the cymbal i.e. tip, shoulder or a combination. If you can figure out exactly how it reacts to each of those and how they relate to each other, you'll be able to use them sub-conciously (like you would with the rudiments), then the world is your oyster, as they say. If that the end of that you're still unhappy with the sound it produces then you could return it or sell it on.

It has been mentioned in nearly every Dream thread (usually by me lateley!), that there's quite the variation between the sound within the same series model and size, thus, they are cymbals you really must try out in person to find the right one. What you heard on that cymbal may not be true for another specimen so to speak. Be mindeful too that cymbals (especially those that have been extensivley hammered) will take a few months to "mellow out" and become more workable sound-wise.

I hope that's of some help.

From one Kev to another Kev; I hope you're having a fantastic weekend!
I have read about the difference in tone between individual Dreams, and noticed it in various sound clips. That's a bit of a problem for me, as I'm disabled and don't drive, so going to a store and checking them would be difficult. I do most of my shopping online, so the fact that the Zildjian A Sweet Ride will be more consistant in tone, combined with the fact that it will work well for rock and good enough for jazz (remember I like Joe Morello and Colin Bailey, not to mention Ed Thigpen, all whom had a brighter cymbal tone than Tony or Elvin or Max), I think I'm going to go with the Zildjian and save the cost of buying one cymbal for rock and another for jazz. I can always add in some Dreams later.

Thanks for the advice, though.
 

ohiodrummer1964

Senior Member
Now that Neil Peart plays paragons and doesn't remove the logo's from Zildjian A's anymore, you may be the only two left who do that, lol.
 

K.Howden

Senior Member
You're welcome,

Talking of Joe, there's a great instructional video that Morello did and he was using Sabian AA's, which to my ears were really bright!

Kind regards,

Kev

Edit: haha! True, I'm quite fond of the gold print on the 14" Bliss hats I recently picked up though, I let that little bit of ink slide!
 

opentune

Platinum Member
I have read about the difference in tone between individual Dreams, and noticed it in various sound clips. That's a bit of a problem for me, as I'm disabled and don't drive, so going to a store and checking them would be difficult. I do most of my shopping online, so the fact that the Zildjian A Sweet Ride will be more consistant in tone, combined with the fact that it will work well for rock and good enough for jazz (remember I like Joe Morello and Colin Bailey, not to mention Ed Thigpen, all whom had a brighter cymbal tone than Tony or Elvin or Max), I think I'm going to go with the Zildjian and save the cost of buying one cymbal for rock and another for jazz. I can always add in some Dreams later.

Thanks for the advice, though.
The best choices for buying online and getting the *exact* sound are for sure PAiste. By far the most consistent, they are identical to what you hear online. Right on the money. If you like Morello's sound, 602's are your cymbal. They are awesome.

Some Zildjains or Sabians vary, same model different cymbals, can be quite a bit. Dream you really should hear the exact cymbal you are buying.

Good luck.
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
Why thank you Duncan.

Hmm, I didn't even get into: stick sizes, weights, tip shape, taper, material...oh god...and then there's dampening, sizzle chains...it goes on. I've got a pair of Vater 7a's that became soaked when my house flooded back in 2008. They become quite soft (almost like maple) and draw such a soft yet defined sound out of the ride, great for uptempo jazz.
It's definitely a keeper because I've removed the logo!
Aha! I do the same thing for my keepers! I thought I was going a little stirr, as no other drummer I've encountered does that, good to know I'm not alone.

Hope you're keeping well,

Kev
Regarding the soaked sticks. I had one of those. It was in my cymbal bag, fell into a puddle and I found it an hour later after a rehearsal. It was a 5B so I never used it but it definitely sounded interesting. I switched to maple sticks about six months ago and I'm not going back, I just love the feel and sound.

Removing logos without ethanol is hard work. Any idea who will sell it in the UK? It's very hard to get hold of, I'd imagine because it's a chemical agent in bomb-making.

I saw that video of Morello too. I suspect that his tastes or his hearing changed. It's well-known that we tend to lose the high-end of our hearing first in age and Morello was very advanced when that video was shot. I think it's entirely possible that was him compensating for what he heard.
 

K.Howden

Senior Member
Three words Duncan: nail, varnish, remover.

Doesn't damage the cymbal, as it evaporate very quickly, dab some of that on a piece of cotton wool and it will remove the ink instantaneously. Just make sure you clear up any of the black residue the ink leaves and you're good to go.

Kev

Edit: yes, I gather that's probably why he did it. Truely manificent playing either way.
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
I've never had good luck with nail varnish remover but I'm probably doing it wrong as usual. Off to Savers (or whatever is left in Gravesend) tomorrow to buy an industrial-sized bottle! Cheers for the tip mate. I'll try to be more patient next time.
 

ohiodrummer1964

Senior Member
I've never had good luck with nail varnish remover but I'm probably doing it wrong as usual. Off to Savers (or whatever is left in Gravesend) tomorrow to buy an industrial-sized bottle! Cheers for the tip mate. I'll try to be more patient next time.
Acetone works for removing logos (although I think that might just be another name for nail varnish remover). And I have the DVD of Morello playing the Sabian AA's. They sound like Zildjian A's or Paiste 602's to me (in general), so I think he just always preferred a brighter tone than a lot of other jazz drummers.
 
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