Don't you love non-drummers who think they know more about grooves than you?

topgun2021

Gold Member
The title is a little exaggerated, but that is how i feel about a piano player in my jazz band.

We are playing Take 5 and he always buds in saying I am playing the groove wrong. He claims that the hi hat is played on 2 and 5, not 2 and 4. He also has some minor gripes about other things like the ride pattern. He shakes his head and says I am playing it wrong where I simply respond with, "You are incorrect.". I have have also thrown in, "Joe Morello, disagrees with you."

I am using this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xeDntw_-Y as my skeleton beat.

The pianist is a little odd. He is in his 40's and has a 15 year old's sense of humor, but it is still bothersome enough where I have to vent.
 

topgun2021

Gold Member
Joe usually played 2 4&5 on the hats so you are both right


2 tight 4&5 splashy

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJE92phKzI
I am not rejecting that. I should have pointed out that I acknowledge he does that, but in (most of) the recordings, he only played the 4 and added the 5 for effect. Seriously though, if he never changed up the groove every live performance he would be dull, I just want to use the most common groove.

I think I just changed the thread to, "I don't like it when people don't let me add my spice to a common groove."
 
Straight 4 would sound kinda' choppy and boring to me. Straight 5 would be sort of lazy. I think the 4 to 4-5 variation sounds best.

So there you go - and I'm not even a drummer :)
 

kauaiplayer

Member
Just tell him, "Hey, I don't tell you how to make balloon animals for the kids, so don't tell me how to do MY job".
 

wsabol

Gold Member
I was on the phone not too long ago, setting up an audition with a Country cover band that I am now currently in. While on the phone the guitar player I'm talking to asks "So, you know how to play country drums right?" I respond "Yes" not really knowing how 'country' drums are defined. THEN he precedes to explain to me in detail the simple kick 1 +3 +1 groove....... You can imagine their astonishment when I played a 6/8 afro-cuban mambo groove.

FACE <- PALM
 

Anduin

Pioneer Member
Most annoying case: some know-it-all wanker in the band (a.k.a. the singer, usually) tries to tell you how play while you're in the middle of the song. If we were guitarists or bassists we could just turn away to ignore the buffoon, but as drummers, we're stuck!
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I like it when a singer, or guitarist turns to you, and motions you to pick it up, or lay it back, whatever, and you don't change anything because you know it's where it should be, and then a few seconds later they smile and nod like, yea, that's it. I never moved from where I was lol.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Most annoying case: some know-it-all wanker in the band (a.k.a. the singer, usually) tries to tell you how play while you're in the middle of the song. If we were guitarists or bassists we could just turn away to ignore the buffoon, but as drummers, we're stuck!
Many moons ago I was in a band where the singer would talk to me during the solo...it was really distracting...I tried to listen, but the guy was a hammer, and likely coked up, so I just tuned him out while looking annoyed. At the time I didn't have enough brainpower to listen and respond to him while playing my part. What a tool that guy was.
 

T.Underhill

Pioneer Member
You're allowed some leeway...you're covering a song. If he wants to do it note for note let him have at it.

If they have a point then I'll listen to anyone in the band for a minute. If you're outside of the band then my attention span will lessen. If they're dead wrong I just ignore it because I don't feel like getting into a debate. I don't tell them how to play their instruments so likewise....
 

dtrushr30dw

Senior Member
I know a ton of noob drummers that like to tell me how they know a cool beat or something and then it sucks, or the double-bass sounds like shoes in the dryer. but the BEST is when they play this on snare drum really fast and they still suck at it. RLRLRLRL...
 

Drumennut

Junior Member
Hey that's my video! crazy. As far as the hi-hat, the video is really only a transcription of the first measure, and from what I can hear, I am almost positive the hat is only on 2 and 4. As with any jazz playing, there is great variety through out the many recordings of this tune, and we should probably be able to put the hi-hat on any or all the beats fluidly, I was only attempting to give the basic structure of the groove, but I can't tell you how awesome it is to see a video, that I made thinking no one would ever see it, being used by someone and mentioned in the drummer world forum!

Thanks
 

Big_Al47

Senior Member
I like it when a singer, or guitarist turns to you, and motions you to pick it up, or lay it back, whatever, and you don't change anything because you know it's where it should be, and then a few seconds later they smile and nod like, yea, that's it. I never moved from where I was lol.
Hahaha that's awesome! I'm so going to use that some day
 

Bad Drummer

Senior Member
First off, this advice only applies when you are getting feedback from non-drummer musicians your respect/trust/are usually right about shit. If they are giving you things that are fundamentally off, acknowledge them and do what you must so you don't argue your way out of a gig - then do what you want.

However, I have found that often times non-drummer musicians will give feedback that is at the heart actually sound advice, they just say it wrong.

To address the specific feedback you got - think about WHY the piano player is giving you this feedback. Is he just a stickler? Is he really THAT obsessed with hi-hat placement in general? Or does it just feel "off", like you're not emphasizing the 5 enough, and he is suggesting (albeit poorly) a way to fix the problem?

An example from a recent playing experience of mine: much to my chagrin, I am discovering how much of my default playing tends to be "on top" of the beat, rather than behind. The lead singer/guitarist, who is a great musician but has pretty mediocre time, kept saying "play slower, you're rushing it". Which is fine advice, except he was completely wrong - I was playing it precisely at the tempo he counted out, just my note placement around the beat was improper. After the other guitarist explained to me what he was trying to communicate after practice, the feedback I was getting made much more sense.

If you're doing it right, you're always going to be playing with people who are as good/better than you are. Trust that there's at least something right about what they are trying to communicate, and do your best to decipher what that means exactly.

As you grow and begin to play with more people, you'll realize that most times your feedback will be in the form of vague, emotion-based descriptions, ex: "this feels x, y, z, can you make it feel like a, b, c?". Paradoxically, you'll also get feedback that's specific to the notes played in your composition, but what they might not realize is when they say something like "that's too busy/loud/aggressive", they really just mean it FEELS too loud/busy/aggressive. You could play the exact same drum part in a different way, and it might feel great. In both cases, it's your job to address what they MEAN rather than what they SAY, and fix the problem.

Sorry, went off on a tangent for a second. What I'm trying to say is more about how you deal with the feedback, rather than an issue of who's right.

It's always difficult (for me, at least) to not want to butt heads or prove that you're right, especially when you ARE right and you know it and everyone else knows it! However, in a situation where you're dealing with egos as delicate as those of most musicians, it behooves you to always avoid binary discussions of Right and Wrong. Try and get to the core of their feedback, and address their base concern, or at least do what you can to make them feel heard and like you care (even if you don't!).

Hope that helps!
 

topgun2021

Gold Member
First off, this advice only applies when you are getting feedback from non-drummer musicians your respect/trust/are usually right about shit. If they are giving you things that are fundamentally off, acknowledge them and do what you must so you don't argue your way out of a gig - then do what you want.

However, I have found that often times non-drummer musicians will give feedback that is at the heart actually sound advice, they just say it wrong.

To address the specific feedback you got - think about WHY the piano player is giving you this feedback. Is he just a stickler? Is he really THAT obsessed with hi-hat placement in general? Or does it just feel "off", like you're not emphasizing the 5 enough, and he is suggesting (albeit poorly) a way to fix the problem?

An example from a recent playing experience of mine: much to my chagrin, I am discovering how much of my default playing tends to be "on top" of the beat, rather than behind. The lead singer/guitarist, who is a great musician but has pretty mediocre time, kept saying "play slower, you're rushing it". Which is fine advice, except he was completely wrong - I was playing it precisely at the tempo he counted out, just my note placement around the beat was improper. After the other guitarist explained to me what he was trying to communicate after practice, the feedback I was getting made much more sense.

If you're doing it right, you're always going to be playing with people who are as good/better than you are. Trust that there's at least something right about what they are trying to communicate, and do your best to decipher what that means exactly.

As you grow and begin to play with more people, you'll realize that most times your feedback will be in the form of vague, emotion-based descriptions, ex: "this feels x, y, z, can you make it feel like a, b, c?". Paradoxically, you'll also get feedback that's specific to the notes played in your composition, but what they might not realize is when they say something like "that's too busy/loud/aggressive", they really just mean it FEELS too loud/busy/aggressive. You could play the exact same drum part in a different way, and it might feel great. In both cases, it's your job to address what they MEAN rather than what they SAY, and fix the problem.

Sorry, went off on a tangent for a second. What I'm trying to say is more about how you deal with the feedback, rather than an issue of who's right.

It's always difficult (for me, at least) to not want to butt heads or prove that you're right, especially when you ARE right and you know it and everyone else knows it! However, in a situation where you're dealing with egos as delicate as those of most musicians, it behooves you to always avoid binary discussions of Right and Wrong. Try and get to the core of their feedback, and address their base concern, or at least do what you can to make them feel heard and like you care (even if you don't!).

Hope that helps!
In this specific issue, this is a university jazz band I am taking for credits. He is also a student taking this for credits.

I am 90% sure his argument is, "I saw Joe Morello play the 5, so therefore you must play the 5 every measure."

I tend to hold the view in this specific song that hi hat on the 4 is the most important.

I am totally up for altering things to the leader's wants and I do that a lot, but doing something just because you saw him do it in a YouTube video, meh.
 

Liebe zeit

Silver Member
First off, this advice only applies when you are getting feedback from non-drummer musicians your respect/trust/are usually right about shit. If they are giving you things that are fundamentally off, acknowledge them and do what you must so you don't argue your way out of a gig - then do what you want.

However, I have found that often times non-drummer musicians will give feedback that is at the heart actually sound advice, they just say it wrong.

To address the specific feedback you got - think about WHY the piano player is giving you this feedback. Is he just a stickler? Is he really THAT obsessed with hi-hat placement in general? Or does it just feel "off", like you're not emphasizing the 5 enough, and he is suggesting (albeit poorly) a way to fix the problem?

An example from a recent playing experience of mine: much to my chagrin, I am discovering how much of my default playing tends to be "on top" of the beat, rather than behind. The lead singer/guitarist, who is a great musician but has pretty mediocre time, kept saying "play slower, you're rushing it". Which is fine advice, except he was completely wrong - I was playing it precisely at the tempo he counted out, just my note placement around the beat was improper. After the other guitarist explained to me what he was trying to communicate after practice, the feedback I was getting made much more sense.

If you're doing it right, you're always going to be playing with people who are as good/better than you are. Trust that there's at least something right about what they are trying to communicate, and do your best to decipher what that means exactly.

As you grow and begin to play with more people, you'll realize that most times your feedback will be in the form of vague, emotion-based descriptions, ex: "this feels x, y, z, can you make it feel like a, b, c?". Paradoxically, you'll also get feedback that's specific to the notes played in your composition, but what they might not realize is when they say something like "that's too busy/loud/aggressive", they really just mean it FEELS too loud/busy/aggressive. You could play the exact same drum part in a different way, and it might feel great. In both cases, it's your job to address what they MEAN rather than what they SAY, and fix the problem.

Sorry, went off on a tangent for a second. What I'm trying to say is more about how you deal with the feedback, rather than an issue of who's right.

It's always difficult (for me, at least) to not want to butt heads or prove that you're right, especially when you ARE right and you know it and everyone else knows it! However, in a situation where you're dealing with egos as delicate as those of most musicians, it behooves you to always avoid binary discussions of Right and Wrong. Try and get to the core of their feedback, and address their base concern, or at least do what you can to make them feel heard and like you care (even if you don't!).

Hope that helps!
Fantastic advice *presses non-existant thanks button* for those in situations where they trust their fellow musicians

I, however, face a situation in one band I'm in that the 'leader'/guitarist gets on my case as deflection for how awful he is on the guitar and probably has a personality disorder
 
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