Developing Jazz Independance

Cottontop

Senior Member
Hey guys, so i'm now in my schools jazz band and im wanting to be able to be more creative while doing a swing beat but i dont have the independancy to keep the swing.

does anybody have any tips, exersizes, or even ways to look at it differently that would help?

this is gonna help with alot more than jazz band.
 

Dave_Major

Silver Member
Best thing to do is get Jim Chapin's book Co-ordinated Independence for the Modern Drummer. This is exactly what you are looking for.

Dave
 

mrmike

Silver Member
John Riley's book "The Art of Bop Drumming" is excellent as well as his DVD. Both have play along track to practice with. Also check out Peter Erskins books and DVDs.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
Just remember to think in terms of a limb "dependent" concept on achieving the final effect of them all working together as "one" to create the desired outcome rather than thinking "independence" {not dependent on what the other limbs are doing at the same time} as Bob Moses calls it based on the true meaning of the word as applied to 4 way coordination drumming. Interdependent {connected to each other} would be closer to a better word to describe the concept and process.

Each limb is dependant on the other to create the overall final effect at the same time. In other words a dialogue you can develope with yourself and ultimately the musical dialogue it achieves having a dialogue using it with other players within the music.

Lots of great books out there as noted but also remember just listen to how many of the jazz drum masters approached it now we are living in a YouTube jazz archive clips time to pick up some conceptual insight on the subject. Lots of trial and error with other musicians in a ensemble setting is essential. No short cuts, just lots of practice alone and in context and the patience involved in achieving it.
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
Just remember to think in terms of a limb "dependent" concept on achieving the final effect of them all working together as "one" to create the desired outcome rather than thinking "independence" {not dependent on what the other limbs are doing at the same time} as Bob Moses calls it based on the true meaning of the word as applied to 4 way coordination drumming. Interdependent {connected to each other} would be closer to a better word to describe the concept and process.

Each limb is dependant on the other to create the overall final effect at the same time. In other words a dialogue you can develope with yourself and ultimately the musical dialogue it achieves having a dialogue using it with other players within the music.
This is such an important point. And in the end, to make meaningful musical statements, what each limb is playing has to relate back to - i.e. is dependent on - the time and musical line of the piece we're playing. Simply being able to play 17 strokes on one hand while playing 7 with another has absolutely no musical meaning. It has to relate to something else - i.e. to pulse and musical line to have musical impact.

Moreover, mentioning Elvin is really pertinent. While he pushed the boundaries of four-way interdependence in his day, one never gets the sense that his limbs are off on different missions. Rather, like a pianists fingers, they were working in CONCERT to create a complete rhythmic picture.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
This is such an important point. And in the end, to make meaningful musical statements, what each limb is playing has to relate back to - i.e. is dependent on - the time and musical line of the piece we're playing. Simply being able to play 17 strokes on one hand while playing 7 with another has absolutely no musical meaning. It has to relate to something else - i.e. to pulse and musical line to have musical impact.

Moreover, mentioning Elvin is really pertinent. While he pushed the boundaries of four-way interdependence in his day, one never gets the sense that his limbs are off on different missions. Rather, like a pianists fingers, they were working in CONCERT to create a complete rhythmic picture.
Elvin described it himself in the film "A Different Drummer" as many rhythms, poly-rhythms, the layering of rhythms so to speak with the limbs working together as "one" to achieve the desired final effect.

Like I say replace the word "independance" with "interdependent" and you're getting much closer to the ballpark of what it's all about.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Hey guys, so i'm now in my schools jazz band and im wanting to be able to be more creative while doing a swing beat but i dont have the independancy to keep the swing.

does anybody have any tips, exersizes, or even ways to look at it differently that would help?

this is gonna help with alot more than jazz band.
My 2 cents, just keep the swing feel, and without "playing more creative" just think the part you are trying to play. Then sing it while keeping swing time. If you can't sing it you can't play it. When you get to the point of being able to sing it without losing your good swing feel, only then should you try to play it. It's easier to sing it out loud at first than to play it.

This is one method I use to break through barriers, sing it first.
 

donv

Silver Member
There's alot available but IMO Marco Minneman's Interdenpendence is the best choice available right now. Unlike the other books mentioned, and again IMO, it's the most open ended book available. Where the other books are more do this, then, then this, etc., Minneman's book introduces you to concepts and ideas and then shows you how to take those concepts and ideas and take off in your own direction.

The book starts off with what he calls "warm up exercises" which involve playing things like a double stroke with your right hand and left foot, and paradiddles with your left hand and right foot. The exercises gradually get more complicated and difficult. From there the book progressives into using the warm up exercises as beats and ostinatos. The book further progresses into ployrythms and on.

The ultimate goal is to play anything with any limb. Another nice thing about using this book is anytime you have any questions, you can email Marco and he'll answer your questions. At least he has answered every question I've had.
 

SamOmina73

Junior Member
Im sure vocal fry should also help with more cord closure throughout the chest voice. But then again, it shouldnt be pushed whatsoever, because chest voice is simply your speaking voice.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Someone's got to mention Alan Dawson and the Reed Syncopation Book, which one can use in tandem with John Riley's book and the Jim Chapin books.
 

donv

Silver Member
Someone's got to mention Alan Dawson and the Reed Syncopation Book, which one can use in tandem with John Riley's book and the Jim Chapin books.
Hi Ken,

Ted Reed's books where bought out by the Basix Drum Company. I've seen the original book still around, but the new books are printed under a different publisher and title. Good book.
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
Hi Ken,

Ted Reed's books where bought out by the Basix Drum Company. I've seen the original book still around, but the new books are printed under a different publisher and title. Good book.
Really? I thought Alfred had locked that one up for good. It's still a great seller I presume, I wonder why they let it go. Anyway, so long as it's in print. It's still my favorite book for teaching reading of basic subdivisions, among other things.
 

donv

Silver Member
I don't like it. They've changed the title, too. And worst of all, they've taken Ted Reed's name off of it. That's a terrible shame.
It is odd that in this ad Reed is listed as the author, but his name is not in the book. At least I don't remember seeing his name in the new book, and I have both. Although the original I have isn't from Alfred. He had his own publishing company out of Florida, and that's what I have. So the book has made the rounds. All 3 publishings are the same note for note though. I don't remember comparing the couple of basic theory pages at the beginning of the books. They may or may not be identical.

http://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Steps-Syncopation-Modern-Drummer/dp/0882847953

This is a link to the Ted Reed Publishing version I've had for about 30 years, and I still come across in stores and is obviously still available on line. The new book does come with the CD, but I'm not sure how helpful it is to someone beginning with sycopation. I haven't measured it, but it has to be played at 110 to 120 BPM. Not something a beginner is going to play along with, and someone who can play along with it at that speed probably is beyond the scope of this book.

Another interesting thing about this book, and Bellson's sycopation book is much of what's in them is identical. I suppose that's just a matter of there being only so much you can write in a beginning text on sycopation. They both introduce sycopation with rests, dotted notes and ties and the progression starting on the first count and then moving further into the measure is the same. I can't say I remember either book progressing to anything that goes over the bar?
 
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