In hindsight, I think you are right. I think Paul was defending his employer, who did not hand hammer cymbals. This was in the early 2000's, I believe, and Zildjian's quality had gone down the toilet at that point. I was not alone in my opinion, of course. Bill Hartrick was unrelenting with his attacks. But every time I went to a music store, I tried out the Zildjians. They all seemed to sound like garbage.
It all started when I bought a 21" Sweet Ride, because a friend of mine recommended it. I was extremely disappointed; it sounded like sh** on toast. Just dull and lifeless. I wrote Craigie Zildjian a letter and told her that Armand would be ashamed of the quality. She called me and graciously invited me up to the factory for an exchange. Before I went, I traveled to Meductic, New Brunswick, and spent a whole day touring the Sabian factory, had dinner with Bob and Willie Zildjian, and was treated like royalty the whole time, by every Sabian employee I met. I walked out of there convinced that Sabian was doing things right, and that Canadians were the nicest people in the world, and I still believe that.
Then, I took the trip up to Quincy, met Craigie and her staff, did the factory tour, and was a bit disturbed to see how quickly they knocked out those cymbals. It was no wonder every Zildjian cymbal sounded like garbage to me at that point in time. I was treated very well however, and picked out a nice K ride, but the experience generally left me with a bad taste in my mouth about Zildjian that remains to this day. I haven't bought a Zildjian cymbal since, although I think their quality has improved.
We have so many excellent cymbal choices these days: Paiste, Sabian, Meinl, UFIP, all the Turkish hand hammered examples and many others. Who needs Zildjian? Back when I started drumming, there was Zildjian, and there was crap. Not the case these days.
Also, at that time, I became friendly with the late cymbalsmith Mike Skiba from Brick Township, NJ, and spent some time watching him hammer and finish his cymbals. Impressive. He knew more about cymbals than any man I ever met.
I read Francis's article somewhere online. I think it may have been posted on DFO. In it, he said hand hammering was nothing more than a marketing ploy. When I met Paul Francis, here's how the conversation went:
Zildjian rep: "Bob, this is Paul Francis, who heads up the R&D here at Zildjian."
Paul: "Oh. You're the guy who wrote the letter."
Bob: "Right, And you're the guy that wrote that bullsh** about hand hammering."
And that was the end of our conversational exchange. The Zildjian rep whisked me out of that room quickly.
So now, I am a bit surprised to read that Paul Francis hand hammers his cymbals. Ironic indeed.
Well now Brother Cianci, We seem to have an axe to grind and a rather lofty sense of your own self-importance. Having reviewed some of your comments, your credibility does not seem to pass the smell test.
First of all, an $1100 cymbal! Oh the horror and hypocrisy? You conveniently negelcted to note that the selling price was for a hand made 26" cymbal, but some of the other forumites have amended your plainly prejudcial, willfully deceptive dissmissal. And the prices of Cymbal Craftsman Instruments are, in point of fact, commensurate with that of the premium lines of hand made instruments by Paiste, Sabian, Meinl and a host of custom builders. No sense in letting facts get in the way of an old and very self aggrandizing beef though, hmmm?
As per your tragic purchase an A. Zildjian 21" Sweet Ride that sounded "like shit on toast"? Don't want to leap to any conclusions, but are we to conclude that such a learned professional as yourself purchased this instrument sight and sound unseen? Because clearly such a well traveled professional drummer as yourself, A/B-ing instruments in a fine drum emporium such as Steve Maxwell's or The Memphis Drum Shop, would be able to readily apprehend what, as my friend Papa Jo Jones liked to say, was chicken salad and what was chicken shit. If you purchased a cymbal on line without a conjugal visit, you are either a naively trusting soul, or...well, let's leave it at that.
Was very interested to hear about the mastery of cymbal craftsman Mike Skiba, may he rest in peace. Regret not having met him. As for Mike knowing more about cymbals than anyone you've ever met, well, I would append your list to include Avedis Armand Ziljian, Nort Hargrove, Gabe Zilcan, Kerope Zilcan, Bill Zildjian, Robert Zidjian, Armand Zildjian, Lennie DiMuzio, Leon Chiappini, Paul Francis, Robert Paiste, Michael Paiste, Roberto Spizzichino...and the whole family of Turkish Artisans, as well as a new generation of dedicated cymbal smiths such as Mattia Bourgis and Justin Ottaviano, to cite just two.
As per your "Zildjian has gone to hell since the early 2000s" narrative, well, you've got THAT bassackwards. I purchased my first drum set at the old Professional Percussion Center back in 1975 from master musician Joe Gallivan: an entry level Slingerland kit that served me quite well for some time, with as luck would have it both a 20" Paiste 2002 Ride AND a set of 13" Paiste Formula 602 Sound Edge Hi Hats, both of which I still own. When it came time to add an 18" left side cymbal, I went to Manny's where, after telling me that "they all sound the same," they placed an 18" A., 18 K. and 18" Paiste 2002 side by side. To my ears, the Paiste had a clear, articulate bell, and a sonorous, balanced sound from top to bottom, with a clearly articulated pitch. The A. and K. were quite skanky; neither in tune with themsleves nor possessed of a functional bell.
Finally, as we appear to be going on, you have substantially mis-stated the entire hand hammering "controversy." When I first visited Sabian in 1983 for my INSIDE SABIAN/History Of The Zildjians piece for Modern Drummer, they were indeed the only ones fully hand hammering cymbals in their HH line. However, they were not doing so, as in a purely Turkish style--as per old world emigree Kerope Zilcan--the cymbals being lower profile designs, though not being over hammered top and bottom, but rather turned over when the shape had been achieved to make a few corrective strokes. Zildjian's K. Series was indeed achieved using a computer programmed hammering system. As for Paiste, when they developed their breakthrough Traditional Series, and offered drummers at long last a for real, old school, over hammered top & bottom Turkish styled cymbal, they deployed a mechanical drop hammer, hand guided by an artisan, and added corrective/selective hand strokes as a final fine tuning measure.
But you see, this whole hand hammered versus machine hammered, K. vs. A styled cymbal gunfight at the OK CORRAL narrative is over simplified. The real distinction is between ASYMMETRICALLY and SYMMETRICALLY hammered instruments. The broader/lower profile and more random/uneven assymetrical hammering style of a quote/unquote K. yields a lower pitched tone and a more gassy/complex harmonic pallete, whereas the higher profile and rigorously even machine hammer strikes of an A. styled cymbal produces a glassy, sweeter, higher pitched and more evenly voiced instrument. The epic mystique of Turkish K's has long been over-hyped. We've all played magical luck of the draw K.s over the years [Cindy Blackman and Jeff Watts have 22" Turikish rides to die for], but for the most part, what fledgling drummers encountered out on the street were not Mel Lewis or Tony Williams' iconic K.s, but wildly inconsistent, due to the haphazard and random manner in which they were crafted. The evolution of patriarch Avedis Zildjian's Quincy Massachussetts company from 1929 through the early pre-Norwell 70s, was an ongoing process of gaining more control over manufacturing, reducing back breaking hand labor as much as possible, and gaining progressively more consistency. Robert Paiste and his family, going back generations, made nickle-silver brass instruments through roughly the late 1950s, and ultimately developed an iconic sound through rigorous manufacturing discpline and a mastery of "cold work" controls to make up for not having the advantage of starting with Zildjian's B20 bronze castings.
The post-Beatles epoch marked an explosion in demand, and yes, in light of production realities, the quality of Zildjian slipped, in part because of tring to meet an unprecedented demand, and their flirtation with corporate marketing wizards who knew little or nothing about cymbals. As the fierce competition between Sabian and ZIldjian ramped up in the 80s and 90s, it benefitted all drummers, and as for Paiste, between their introduction of their proprietary B15 Signature Bronze in 1989 with the symmetrically hammered Signature line and their stunning roll out of an authentic over hammered top/bottom, assymetrical K. style TRADTIONAL line in the mid 90s [not fully hand hammered, but an authentic hand hammered STYLE], Paiste upped the competitive ante dramtically--and created a burgeoning market for PREMIUM CYMBALS at collectors' prices.
It was during the mid-90s that Paul Francis emerged as Zildjian's main R&D man, and as such, his ascent marked a significant uptick of the entire Zildjian line, in terms of qiality, consistency and variety. Paul was in large part responsible for the increased production line quality controls, and the development of such iconic popular new lines as the A. Custom, the Constantinople, the Armand, the K. Custom Special Dry [1.0 and 2.1], the Kerope, countless Sound Lab prototypes developed in tandem with many of the leading jazz, rock and R&B drummers, and my own personal fave--and something I hectored A. about for the better part of 15 years--the return of the Classic AVEDIS line, a spot on evocataion of the warmer yet shimmering, lower profile, symmetrically machine hammered TOP & BOTTOM, 1950s A. Zildjian--or as I like to put it, vis a vis the 1950s, HOW THE WEST WAS WON.
As for your churlish, vindctive and uninformed suggestion that Paul Francis is a hypocrite who now advocates for hand hammering? SHAME ON YOU. Ask any of the leading drummers who interacted with Paul Francis over his 30 + plus years at Zildjian, at countless clinics around the world, incorporating their ideas, and researching the vintage cymbals they brought up to Norwell in an attempt to replicate them [leading to such marvellous instruments, as the limited edition A. AVEDIS Joe Morello TAKE FIVE Cymbal Francis developed for/with The Memphis Drum Shop], and they will hoist a stein of ale, metaphorically speaking, in praise of his dedication, open-mindedness, discipline and creativity in the service of the evolution of the cymbal. I cherish my collection of Sabian, Zildjian and Paiste Cymbals. Enduring musicality. I particularly cherish the handiwork of Paul Francis.
Finally, as per your drive by shooter inferences of hypocrisy: "Oh, NOW he's in to hand hammering. He has no cred." TskTskTsk. What are you? THE LAST HONEST MAN? I think not. Paul's street cred, and the burgeoning demand for CYMBAL CRAFSTMAN CYMBALS amongst the leading drum shops speaks for itself? CYMBAL CRAFTSMAN CYMBALS are hand made and hand hammered from Turkish B20 blanks, not unlike other Gen X Cymbal Craftsman, because Paul does not have millons of dollars worth of smelting gear, industrial ovens & rollers, nor mechanical presses and hammering machines in his basement. I mean....like, DUH. A hammer, an anvil, a lathe, a B20 bronze blank and a set of ears. As opposed to a trolls set of brass balls and manifest envy.
Which is why there is such an enduring respect for him as a cat, and burgeoning demand for his hand crafted cymbals. And why participants of this forum might want to reference the self-aggrandizing, willfully miselading postings of a New Jersey club date drummer with a grain of salt.
PEACE. And Happy Trails.