"Cymbal Craftsman" Paul Francis

Both factories were really small. Avedis got away from putting the cups in with sledgehammers and started bumping the blanks and putting hammer rows instead of hammering the blank in a more asymmetrical way.
Yet.. I would say there's more "variation" in 50s 60s 70s Avedis than there was..In Old K's of similar build years.

A's were more random (maybe it's the lathing!) than Old Ks seem to be.
Old Ks LOOK identical- from an era.
Avedis more (random- despite the methods) individual

There's a strictness to the mostly handmade Old K versus
Older A's where - besides the lathing had more machinery involved.

Old K (within a stamp era) Look Identical
Older A's nearly no two "look" the same....

Old Ks by contrast near carbon-copys
I know. Ironic considering the circumstance (of eithers) birth.

I think it's the lathing. That- that is- Visible. (But also the cup)
That old Ks seem extremely Uniform. (thru out a build period/stamp)

I know. Counter-intuitive!

there's at least "three" old K Istanbuls. In general; 40s 50s Old; ---60s Intermediate;-- and 60s 70s New Stamp- that you can set your watch - any time of the day to- visually..

Old Avedis (say up to 79; or earliest 80s) were "all over the place" with a few notable early period exceptions;
seemed 'more leeway" was allowed with A's..
esp in style-of-lathing


There's some irony going on there : )
But
 
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In hindsight, I think you are right. I think Paul was defending his employer, who did not hand hammer cymbals. This was in the early 2000's, I believe, and Zildjian's quality had gone down the toilet at that point. I was not alone in my opinion, of course. Bill Hartrick was unrelenting with his attacks. But every time I went to a music store, I tried out the Zildjians. They all seemed to sound like garbage.

It all started when I bought a 21" Sweet Ride, because a friend of mine recommended it. I was extremely disappointed; it sounded like sh** on toast. Just dull and lifeless. I wrote Craigie Zildjian a letter and told her that Armand would be ashamed of the quality. She called me and graciously invited me up to the factory for an exchange. Before I went, I traveled to Meductic, New Brunswick, and spent a whole day touring the Sabian factory, had dinner with Bob and Willie Zildjian, and was treated like royalty the whole time, by every Sabian employee I met. I walked out of there convinced that Sabian was doing things right, and that Canadians were the nicest people in the world, and I still believe that.

Then, I took the trip up to Quincy, met Craigie and her staff, did the factory tour, and was a bit disturbed to see how quickly they knocked out those cymbals. It was no wonder every Zildjian cymbal sounded like garbage to me at that point in time. I was treated very well however, and picked out a nice K ride, but the experience generally left me with a bad taste in my mouth about Zildjian that remains to this day. I haven't bought a Zildjian cymbal since, although I think their quality has improved.

We have so many excellent cymbal choices these days: Paiste, Sabian, Meinl, UFIP, all the Turkish hand hammered examples and many others. Who needs Zildjian? Back when I started drumming, there was Zildjian, and there was crap. Not the case these days.

Also, at that time, I became friendly with the late cymbalsmith Mike Skiba from Brick Township, NJ, and spent some time watching him hammer and finish his cymbals. Impressive. He knew more about cymbals than any man I ever met.

I read Francis's article somewhere online. I think it may have been posted on DFO. In it, he said hand hammering was nothing more than a marketing ploy. When I met Paul Francis, here's how the conversation went:

Zildjian rep: "Bob, this is Paul Francis, who heads up the R&D here at Zildjian."

Paul: "Oh. You're the guy who wrote the letter."

Bob: "Right, And you're the guy that wrote that bullsh** about hand hammering."

And that was the end of our conversational exchange. The Zildjian rep whisked me out of that room quickly.

So now, I am a bit surprised to read that Paul Francis hand hammers his cymbals. Ironic indeed.
Well now Brother Cianci, We seem to have an axe to grind and a rather lofty sense of your own self-importance. Having reviewed some of your comments, your credibility does not seem to pass the smell test.

First of all, an $1100 cymbal! Oh the horror and hypocrisy? You conveniently negelcted to note that the selling price was for a hand made 26" cymbal, but some of the other forumites have amended your plainly prejudcial, willfully deceptive dissmissal. And the prices of Cymbal Craftsman Instruments are, in point of fact, commensurate with that of the premium lines of hand made instruments by Paiste, Sabian, Meinl and a host of custom builders. No sense in letting facts get in the way of an old and very self aggrandizing beef though, hmmm?

As per your tragic purchase an A. Zildjian 21" Sweet Ride that sounded "like shit on toast"? Don't want to leap to any conclusions, but are we to conclude that such a learned professional as yourself purchased this instrument sight and sound unseen? Because clearly such a well traveled professional drummer as yourself, A/B-ing instruments in a fine drum emporium such as Steve Maxwell's or The Memphis Drum Shop, would be able to readily apprehend what, as my friend Papa Jo Jones liked to say, was chicken salad and what was chicken shit. If you purchased a cymbal on line without a conjugal visit, you are either a naively trusting soul, or...well, let's leave it at that.

Was very interested to hear about the mastery of cymbal craftsman Mike Skiba, may he rest in peace. Regret not having met him. As for Mike knowing more about cymbals than anyone you've ever met, well, I would append your list to include Avedis Armand Ziljian, Nort Hargrove, Gabe Zilcan, Kerope Zilcan, Bill Zildjian, Robert Zidjian, Armand Zildjian, Lennie DiMuzio, Leon Chiappini, Paul Francis, Robert Paiste, Michael Paiste, Roberto Spizzichino...and the whole family of Turkish Artisans, as well as a new generation of dedicated cymbal smiths such as Mattia Bourgis and Justin Ottaviano, to cite just two.

As per your "Zildjian has gone to hell since the early 2000s" narrative, well, you've got THAT bassackwards. I purchased my first drum set at the old Professional Percussion Center back in 1975 from master musician Joe Gallivan: an entry level Slingerland kit that served me quite well for some time, with as luck would have it both a 20" Paiste 2002 Ride AND a set of 13" Paiste Formula 602 Sound Edge Hi Hats, both of which I still own. When it came time to add an 18" left side cymbal, I went to Manny's where, after telling me that "they all sound the same," they placed an 18" A., 18 K. and 18" Paiste 2002 side by side. To my ears, the Paiste had a clear, articulate bell, and a sonorous, balanced sound from top to bottom, with a clearly articulated pitch. The A. and K. were quite skanky; neither in tune with themsleves nor possessed of a functional bell.

Finally, as we appear to be going on, you have substantially mis-stated the entire hand hammering "controversy." When I first visited Sabian in 1983 for my INSIDE SABIAN/History Of The Zildjians piece for Modern Drummer, they were indeed the only ones fully hand hammering cymbals in their HH line. However, they were not doing so, as in a purely Turkish style--as per old world emigree Kerope Zilcan--the cymbals being lower profile designs, though not being over hammered top and bottom, but rather turned over when the shape had been achieved to make a few corrective strokes. Zildjian's K. Series was indeed achieved using a computer programmed hammering system. As for Paiste, when they developed their breakthrough Traditional Series, and offered drummers at long last a for real, old school, over hammered top & bottom Turkish styled cymbal, they deployed a mechanical drop hammer, hand guided by an artisan, and added corrective/selective hand strokes as a final fine tuning measure.

But you see, this whole hand hammered versus machine hammered, K. vs. A styled cymbal gunfight at the OK CORRAL narrative is over simplified. The real distinction is between ASYMMETRICALLY and SYMMETRICALLY hammered instruments. The broader/lower profile and more random/uneven assymetrical hammering style of a quote/unquote K. yields a lower pitched tone and a more gassy/complex harmonic pallete, whereas the higher profile and rigorously even machine hammer strikes of an A. styled cymbal produces a glassy, sweeter, higher pitched and more evenly voiced instrument. The epic mystique of Turkish K's has long been over-hyped. We've all played magical luck of the draw K.s over the years [Cindy Blackman and Jeff Watts have 22" Turikish rides to die for], but for the most part, what fledgling drummers encountered out on the street were not Mel Lewis or Tony Williams' iconic K.s, but wildly inconsistent, due to the haphazard and random manner in which they were crafted. The evolution of patriarch Avedis Zildjian's Quincy Massachussetts company from 1929 through the early pre-Norwell 70s, was an ongoing process of gaining more control over manufacturing, reducing back breaking hand labor as much as possible, and gaining progressively more consistency. Robert Paiste and his family, going back generations, made nickle-silver brass instruments through roughly the late 1950s, and ultimately developed an iconic sound through rigorous manufacturing discpline and a mastery of "cold work" controls to make up for not having the advantage of starting with Zildjian's B20 bronze castings.

The post-Beatles epoch marked an explosion in demand, and yes, in light of production realities, the quality of Zildjian slipped, in part because of tring to meet an unprecedented demand, and their flirtation with corporate marketing wizards who knew little or nothing about cymbals. As the fierce competition between Sabian and ZIldjian ramped up in the 80s and 90s, it benefitted all drummers, and as for Paiste, between their introduction of their proprietary B15 Signature Bronze in 1989 with the symmetrically hammered Signature line and their stunning roll out of an authentic over hammered top/bottom, assymetrical K. style TRADTIONAL line in the mid 90s [not fully hand hammered, but an authentic hand hammered STYLE], Paiste upped the competitive ante dramtically--and created a burgeoning market for PREMIUM CYMBALS at collectors' prices.

It was during the mid-90s that Paul Francis emerged as Zildjian's main R&D man, and as such, his ascent marked a significant uptick of the entire Zildjian line, in terms of qiality, consistency and variety. Paul was in large part responsible for the increased production line quality controls, and the development of such iconic popular new lines as the A. Custom, the Constantinople, the Armand, the K. Custom Special Dry [1.0 and 2.1], the Kerope, countless Sound Lab prototypes developed in tandem with many of the leading jazz, rock and R&B drummers, and my own personal fave--and something I hectored A. about for the better part of 15 years--the return of the Classic AVEDIS line, a spot on evocataion of the warmer yet shimmering, lower profile, symmetrically machine hammered TOP & BOTTOM, 1950s A. Zildjian--or as I like to put it, vis a vis the 1950s, HOW THE WEST WAS WON.

As for your churlish, vindctive and uninformed suggestion that Paul Francis is a hypocrite who now advocates for hand hammering? SHAME ON YOU. Ask any of the leading drummers who interacted with Paul Francis over his 30 + plus years at Zildjian, at countless clinics around the world, incorporating their ideas, and researching the vintage cymbals they brought up to Norwell in an attempt to replicate them [leading to such marvellous instruments, as the limited edition A. AVEDIS Joe Morello TAKE FIVE Cymbal Francis developed for/with The Memphis Drum Shop], and they will hoist a stein of ale, metaphorically speaking, in praise of his dedication, open-mindedness, discipline and creativity in the service of the evolution of the cymbal. I cherish my collection of Sabian, Zildjian and Paiste Cymbals. Enduring musicality. I particularly cherish the handiwork of Paul Francis.

Finally, as per your drive by shooter inferences of hypocrisy: "Oh, NOW he's in to hand hammering. He has no cred." TskTskTsk. What are you? THE LAST HONEST MAN? I think not. Paul's street cred, and the burgeoning demand for CYMBAL CRAFSTMAN CYMBALS amongst the leading drum shops speaks for itself? CYMBAL CRAFTSMAN CYMBALS are hand made and hand hammered from Turkish B20 blanks, not unlike other Gen X Cymbal Craftsman, because Paul does not have millons of dollars worth of smelting gear, industrial ovens & rollers, nor mechanical presses and hammering machines in his basement. I mean....like, DUH. A hammer, an anvil, a lathe, a B20 bronze blank and a set of ears. As opposed to a trolls set of brass balls and manifest envy.

Which is why there is such an enduring respect for him as a cat, and burgeoning demand for his hand crafted cymbals. And why participants of this forum might want to reference the self-aggrandizing, willfully miselading postings of a New Jersey club date drummer with a grain of salt.

PEACE. And Happy Trails.
 
Oh good gravy! I think both you guys take cymbals way too seriously. Not like they’re bass amps ;)

So my question is what difference does it make whether cymbals are machine hammered, hand hammered, or hammered with a silver hammer by Maxwell Edison? Seems to me that as long as it’s hammered the proper way for a particular cymbal, how it’s done shouldn’t make a difference, no?
 
Actually?

No, Jimmy. Many aspects of a cymbal's cup/bell [large or small, deep or shallow, broad or high], shape/profile [high or low], hammmerig [symmetrically/even-uniform or assymetrically/variegated-uneven] and lathing [a deeper cut or a light pass over the surface] all contribute signifcantly to the transient attack, decay, wash, compexity of overtones, et al. Drummers are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs in these regards, albeit, without all of the analysis, because the cymbals on a drum set tend to really set one drummer apart from another, vis a vis their signature sound.

I can see I'm already losing you...well, a classic A. Zildjian or a cymbal from Paiste's Signature line with their even hammering and higher shape, tend to have a brighter, tighter sound. The numerous variations and offshoots of a Turiskh cymbal--such as the Paiste Traditional, the Sabian HH, the K. Constantinople to name just a few--with their more complex, less uniform hammering styles, and lower shape, tend to have a darker sound and a more complex mix of harmonics. A heavier A. style cymbal might [MIGHT] better suit a drummer in an amplified setting where you want to cut through the bass frequencies, while a lighter K. style cymbal might prove more pleasing for a drummer in an acoustic setting where they want to blend more with the bass or kind of seat themselves below that frequency range.

Things are not necessarily all that cut and dry, okay. But again, the cymbal's tone and coloration and relative dryness or wetness speaks to how the drummer hears and feels and identifies the overall choral voicing of the entire multiple percussion kit, and its various frequency ranges, from the bass drum on up.

So yeah, it makes a difference, and among the more fanatical of us, there is something of a Holy Grail pursuit of the perfect sound, or, least ways, an iconic sound, like Tony Williams' K. ride on MILES SMILES, and on and on and on, or GInger Baker's A. Ride with Cream and beyond [he played that same ride as his lead cymbal for over 50 years].

You mentioned bass amps, tongue in cheek. Well, back in the earliest days of the bass guitar, what choice did you have in amps? There were a couple of all tube designs, such as the Fender 4 X 10 Bassman [which ultimately proved more popular among guitarists and was the template for Jim Marshall's trend setting 50 Watt Plexi combo which Clapton used with the Bluesbreakers; there were the popular tubed Ampegs, from the classic single 15 PortaFlex, a small combo which proved very popular amongst jazz bassists to the 8 X 10/300 watt SVT, which could collapse one's rib cage and hold its own up against even the loudest guiatarists. Moving forward from Jaco's Acoustics to the popular Gallien Krugers, the trend was towards higher powered solid state amps, with less tubey overtones, and more focus and penetration at the point of attack. But you knew that, already.

Finally, from the ridciulous to the sublime, one might one to draw analogy--and this is admittedly a simplistic stretch--between an A. Zildjian and a Fender Stratocaster, as opposed to a K. Zildjian and a Les Paul. Brighter Vs Darker, Jangly Vs Throaty.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Right, but I was asking about if a cymbal was hand hammered and another “identical” cymbal was machine hammered. And my bass amp back in the day was an Ampeg. Still is, too, just a smaller one instead of the V4b 810
 
So my question is what difference does it make whether cymbals are machine hammered, hand hammered, or hammered with a silver hammer by Maxwell Edison?
Jimmy this is a discussion we've had on Drum Forums for -going on 25 years. Back up then come forward.
And it's legitimate in the discussion.
Point me to a Bass Forum where I can go and say "what difference does it make" just for fun.
It'd be no fun. Nor very instructive. Hardly enlightening. Seasoned players observations - all of them- are worthwhile.
Observe.
 
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Wow, what is with the condescension? I asked a legit question, not a damn gotcha question.
 
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" Daddy, why is the moon round?"
sometimes, It's easy to ask. but not too simple to answer. Take it on in an authored thread.
 
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Wow, what is with the condescension? I asked a legit question, not a damn gotcha question.
No one is patronizing you. As I attempted to explain, the very concept of two cymbals being IDENTICAL, is a flawed premise. To repeat one more time, I once had the privilege of going through a cart of maybe 100 22" Sabian HH Medium RIdes, fresh off the factory floor. While to the naked eye, they were all 22" cymbals, every single one of them was different. Can't make it more simple than that, dude.
 
Wow, what is with the condescension? I asked a legit question, not a damn gotcha question.
And the style of hammering makes for different voicings. Try swapping out the round wound strings on your bass for flat wounds. Might even be the same gague, but the voicing and harmonic content would be different, no?
 
No one is patronizing you. As I attempted to explain, the very concept of two cymbals being IDENTICAL, is a flawed premise. To repeat one more time, I once had the privilege of going through a cart of maybe 100 22" Sabian HH Medium RIdes, fresh off the factory floor. While to the naked eye, they were all 22" cymbals, every single one of them was different. Can't make it more simple than that, dude.
And the style of hammering makes for different voicings. Try swapping out the round wound strings on your bass for flat wounds. Might even be the same gague, but the voicing and harmonic content would be different, no?
Yes, but very few people call one or the other inferior. That’s what throws me.
 
These questions are better left for Paul but from what I remember the process goes as such.

1)tin and copper are mixed together and castings are made
2)castings go through a oven were they are heated and then rolled, this happens multiple times until the blank has the right thickness
3)once the cymbal is at the right thickness they quench it in cold water because the alloy is brittle and can shatter like glass
4)After the quenching the cymbals then get a bell pressed in to them
5)after the bell is pressed the cymbal moves on to the lathe, the first part of the lathing is to remove the tin oxide, after this the cymbal is lathed to a exact thickness
6)the cymbal then gets tested to make sure it has the right sound characteristic, assuming it does it then gets the logo stamped in to it

For a more in-depth look search up a Zildjian factory tour and you will find a bunch of vids.
And in the Sabian video, they do the hammering before lathing and press the the bell before the cold water if I recall well.
 
Well now Brother Cianci, We seem to have an axe to grind and a rather lofty sense of your own self-importance. Having reviewed some of your comments, your credibility does not seem to pass the smell test.

First of all, an $1100 cymbal! Oh the horror and hypocrisy? You conveniently negelcted to note that the selling price was for a hand made 26" cymbal, but some of the other forumites have amended your plainly prejudcial, willfully deceptive dissmissal. And the prices of Cymbal Craftsman Instruments are, in point of fact, commensurate with that of the premium lines of hand made instruments by Paiste, Sabian, Meinl and a host of custom builders. No sense in letting facts get in the way of an old and very self aggrandizing beef though, hmmm?

As per your tragic purchase an A. Zildjian 21" Sweet Ride that sounded "like shit on toast"? Don't want to leap to any conclusions, but are we to conclude that such a learned professional as yourself purchased this instrument sight and sound unseen? Because clearly such a well traveled professional drummer as yourself, A/B-ing instruments in a fine drum emporium such as Steve Maxwell's or The Memphis Drum Shop, would be able to readily apprehend what, as my friend Papa Jo Jones liked to say, was chicken salad and what was chicken shit. If you purchased a cymbal on line without a conjugal visit, you are either a naively trusting soul, or...well, let's leave it at that.

Was very interested to hear about the mastery of cymbal craftsman Mike Skiba, may he rest in peace. Regret not having met him. As for Mike knowing more about cymbals than anyone you've ever met, well, I would append your list to include Avedis Armand Ziljian, Nort Hargrove, Gabe Zilcan, Kerope Zilcan, Bill Zildjian, Robert Zidjian, Armand Zildjian, Lennie DiMuzio, Leon Chiappini, Paul Francis, Robert Paiste, Michael Paiste, Roberto Spizzichino...and the whole family of Turkish Artisans, as well as a new generation of dedicated cymbal smiths such as Mattia Bourgis and Justin Ottaviano, to cite just two.

As per your "Zildjian has gone to hell since the early 2000s" narrative, well, you've got THAT bassackwards. I purchased my first drum set at the old Professional Percussion Center back in 1975 from master musician Joe Gallivan: an entry level Slingerland kit that served me quite well for some time, with as luck would have it both a 20" Paiste 2002 Ride AND a set of 13" Paiste Formula 602 Sound Edge Hi Hats, both of which I still own. When it came time to add an 18" left side cymbal, I went to Manny's where, after telling me that "they all sound the same," they placed an 18" A., 18 K. and 18" Paiste 2002 side by side. To my ears, the Paiste had a clear, articulate bell, and a sonorous, balanced sound from top to bottom, with a clearly articulated pitch. The A. and K. were quite skanky; neither in tune with themsleves nor possessed of a functional bell.

Finally, as we appear to be going on, you have substantially mis-stated the entire hand hammering "controversy." When I first visited Sabian in 1983 for my INSIDE SABIAN/History Of The Zildjians piece for Modern Drummer, they were indeed the only ones fully hand hammering cymbals in their HH line. However, they were not doing so, as in a purely Turkish style--as per old world emigree Kerope Zilcan--the cymbals being lower profile designs, though not being over hammered top and bottom, but rather turned over when the shape had been achieved to make a few corrective strokes. Zildjian's K. Series was indeed achieved using a computer programmed hammering system. As for Paiste, when they developed their breakthrough Traditional Series, and offered drummers at long last a for real, old school, over hammered top & bottom Turkish styled cymbal, they deployed a mechanical drop hammer, hand guided by an artisan, and added corrective/selective hand strokes as a final fine tuning measure.

But you see, this whole hand hammered versus machine hammered, K. vs. A styled cymbal gunfight at the OK CORRAL narrative is over simplified. The real distinction is between ASYMMETRICALLY and SYMMETRICALLY hammered instruments. The broader/lower profile and more random/uneven assymetrical hammering style of a quote/unquote K. yields a lower pitched tone and a more gassy/complex harmonic pallete, whereas the higher profile and rigorously even machine hammer strikes of an A. styled cymbal produces a glassy, sweeter, higher pitched and more evenly voiced instrument. The epic mystique of Turkish K's has long been over-hyped. We've all played magical luck of the draw K.s over the years [Cindy Blackman and Jeff Watts have 22" Turikish rides to die for], but for the most part, what fledgling drummers encountered out on the street were not Mel Lewis or Tony Williams' iconic K.s, but wildly inconsistent, due to the haphazard and random manner in which they were crafted. The evolution of patriarch Avedis Zildjian's Quincy Massachussetts company from 1929 through the early pre-Norwell 70s, was an ongoing process of gaining more control over manufacturing, reducing back breaking hand labor as much as possible, and gaining progressively more consistency. Robert Paiste and his family, going back generations, made nickle-silver brass instruments through roughly the late 1950s, and ultimately developed an iconic sound through rigorous manufacturing discpline and a mastery of "cold work" controls to make up for not having the advantage of starting with Zildjian's B20 bronze castings.

The post-Beatles epoch marked an explosion in demand, and yes, in light of production realities, the quality of Zildjian slipped, in part because of tring to meet an unprecedented demand, and their flirtation with corporate marketing wizards who knew little or nothing about cymbals. As the fierce competition between Sabian and ZIldjian ramped up in the 80s and 90s, it benefitted all drummers, and as for Paiste, between their introduction of their proprietary B15 Signature Bronze in 1989 with the symmetrically hammered Signature line and their stunning roll out of an authentic over hammered top/bottom, assymetrical K. style TRADTIONAL line in the mid 90s [not fully hand hammered, but an authentic hand hammered STYLE], Paiste upped the competitive ante dramtically--and created a burgeoning market for PREMIUM CYMBALS at collectors' prices.

It was during the mid-90s that Paul Francis emerged as Zildjian's main R&D man, and as such, his ascent marked a significant uptick of the entire Zildjian line, in terms of qiality, consistency and variety. Paul was in large part responsible for the increased production line quality controls, and the development of such iconic popular new lines as the A. Custom, the Constantinople, the Armand, the K. Custom Special Dry [1.0 and 2.1], the Kerope, countless Sound Lab prototypes developed in tandem with many of the leading jazz, rock and R&B drummers, and my own personal fave--and something I hectored A. about for the better part of 15 years--the return of the Classic AVEDIS line, a spot on evocataion of the warmer yet shimmering, lower profile, symmetrically machine hammered TOP & BOTTOM, 1950s A. Zildjian--or as I like to put it, vis a vis the 1950s, HOW THE WEST WAS WON.

As for your churlish, vindctive and uninformed suggestion that Paul Francis is a hypocrite who now advocates for hand hammering? SHAME ON YOU. Ask any of the leading drummers who interacted with Paul Francis over his 30 + plus years at Zildjian, at countless clinics around the world, incorporating their ideas, and researching the vintage cymbals they brought up to Norwell in an attempt to replicate them [leading to such marvellous instruments, as the limited edition A. AVEDIS Joe Morello TAKE FIVE Cymbal Francis developed for/with The Memphis Drum Shop], and they will hoist a stein of ale, metaphorically speaking, in praise of his dedication, open-mindedness, discipline and creativity in the service of the evolution of the cymbal. I cherish my collection of Sabian, Zildjian and Paiste Cymbals. Enduring musicality. I particularly cherish the handiwork of Paul Francis.

Finally, as per your drive by shooter inferences of hypocrisy: "Oh, NOW he's in to hand hammering. He has no cred." TskTskTsk. What are you? THE LAST HONEST MAN? I think not. Paul's street cred, and the burgeoning demand for CYMBAL CRAFSTMAN CYMBALS amongst the leading drum shops speaks for itself? CYMBAL CRAFTSMAN CYMBALS are hand made and hand hammered from Turkish B20 blanks, not unlike other Gen X Cymbal Craftsman, because Paul does not have millons of dollars worth of smelting gear, industrial ovens & rollers, nor mechanical presses and hammering machines in his basement. I mean....like, DUH. A hammer, an anvil, a lathe, a B20 bronze blank and a set of ears. As opposed to a trolls set of brass balls and manifest envy.

Which is why there is such an enduring respect for him as a cat, and burgeoning demand for his hand crafted cymbals. And why participants of this forum might want to reference the self-aggrandizing, willfully miselading postings of a New Jersey club date drummer with a grain of salt.

PEACE. And Happy Trails.

Chip Stern has always had an axe to grind with me, so members, please know that upfront. He came here and saw an opportunity to rattle my chain once again.

Your idiotic response is indicative of your writing style, which I always found bloated, and full of self-puffery and self-importance, so instead of reporting this insulting post, I'll just put you on the Ignore List,. Stern. You're also the jerk who panned my book about two years after it was released, a cheap shot if there ever was one.

Why don't you just go away and crawl back into the hole from which you came, Stern. My opinion is as valid as any other drummer who tried and disliked Zildjian cymbals at that particular point in time.
 
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@All: please get this train wreck back to an adult, civilized discussion, free from insults, talking down, passive aggressive statements or whatever. This goes out to all members involved.

Edit: bwaha we actually DO have a member called All :D
 
Chip Stern has always had an axe to grind with me, so members, please know that upfront. He came here and saw an opportunity to rattle my chain once again.

Your idiotic response is indicative of your writing style, which I always found bloated, and full of self-puffery and self-importance, so instead of reporting this insulting post, I'll just put you on the Ignore List,. Stern. You're also the jerk who panned my book about two years after it was released, a cheap shot if there ever was one.

Why don't you just go away and crawl back into the hole from which you came, Stern. My opinion is as valid as any other drummer who tried and disliked Zildjian cymbals at that particular point in time.
And a good day to you as well, sir.
 
You are probably right, I haven’t looked at the process recently.
As I recall, the immersion of the oven heated and repeatedly rolled blank in a viscous mixture of water and oil precedes the pneumatic compression pressing of the bell, followed by a trimming/cutting off of the extraneous rough metal edges. At that point the cymbal is either hand or machine hammered, then lathed, and finally the rough outer edges are ground down for life as an HH or AA cymbal
 
@All: please get this train wreck back to an adult, civilized discussion, free from insults, talking down, passive aggressive statements or whatever. This goes out to all members involved.

Edit: bwaha we actually DO have a member called All :D
Peace Out
 

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Chip Stern has always had an axe to grind with me, so members, please know that upfront. He came here and saw an opportunity to rattle my chain once again.

Your idiotic response is indicative of your writing style, which I always found bloated, and full of self-puffery and self-importance, so instead of reporting this insulting post, I'll just put you on the Ignore List,. Stern. You're also the jerk who panned my book about two years after it was released, a cheap shot if there ever was one.

Why don't you just go away and crawl back into the hole from which you came, Stern. My opinion is as valid as any other drummer who tried and disliked Zildjian cymbals at that particular point in time.
Universally Acclaimed
 
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