Crash/Ride what's the point?

Solaris

Silver Member
The 22" K Crash/Ride is a beautiful cymbal, regardless of what it says on the label. It's about the only crash/ride that does both properly.
 

eddiehimself

Platinum Member
Yeah... I've seen this too... but why not just do this with a big crash cymbal? seems silly to make the crash/ride combo... i dunno... i play an old 22" zildjian ping ride so obviously i couldn't do that on there... but i could get away with it on my 18" paiste crash... i personally don't really like that sound so i never really do it...
I'm using a crash for this sort of purpose at the moment. I wouldn't really use a crash ride ie a cymbal that i'd use for both crash and ride patterns because i always feel it's going to be a compromise, i like a pretty clean sounding ride without a lot of wash on it but then a real saturated sort of crash sound. I still might buy a crash ride cymbal though because of it's merits as a crash cymbal for doing patterns on and stuff. I personally like that sort of sound, it can be really good for getting a really "heavy" sort of sound but if you're not into that sort of music then i guess there's not much point.
 

thelimpingtoad

Senior Member
you're just like my drum teacher. that's his exact philosophy.
This was always my thinking as well... That's why I asked the question originally..
Okay... so it looks like you guys have answered my question... A good explanation of WHY someone would WANT a crash/ride to begin with... and confirmed my suspicions that they are sold a lot to beginners to save them money but also can be used in a practical environment. It can be used as an alternate ride cymbal for cases a big heavy ride is uncalled for, and a lighter sound is needed but crashes may sound too weak for riding with the stick tip... AND it can be a good thing to use for crash-riding with the stick edge for heavy sounding stuff..
I probably won't be buying a crash/ride anytime soon... I was just wondering because it always confused me... and I go the same route as Chip with picking cymbals... if i don't hit it and hear it, i won't buy it... the advantage of having a massive drum shop (Dale's Drum Shop) 10 minutes from my house. So the point is that if i try one i like when i'm in the market for a cymbal some day, I might not rule it out just because its a "Crash/ride combo".

Thanks for all your expert opinions on crash/ride combos and finally clearing this mystery up for me... after 14-15 years of playing I finally get what the point is.
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
I have an Evolution Ride that I bought because I wanted it for a ride, but after playing it with my band I discovered that if I wasn't right on the bell, it just opened up and became uncontrollable.

It sat in my garage for a few years until it occurred to me to take advantage of its EZ opening and just use it for a crash. Now it's my go-to big crash cymbal. Whenever I listen to Dave Weckl, I notice that he rarely plays his ride on the bow: he's either riding on the bell or crashing it.

I also have an AA RBDR that is just pingy. I can almost get it to open up if I lay into it with the tip of the stick out at the edge of the bow. I like its ping, but I get frustrated that I can't get very dynamic with it. It works great for low volume gigs, though, because the swell is then audible.

My favorite ride at the moment is a 22" 2oo2 Ride that does it all: pingy when I want that, but if I shank it or bury the shoulder of the stick on its edge, it opens right up. Very satisfying.
 

volvoguy

Senior Member
In cheap cymbal sets, a "crash-ride" is just a way to get the words "crash" and "ride" on the box. So it's all marketing there.

You really need to get past the labels, and look at cymbals as cymbals. You don't need to use a crash cymbal as something you whack, and you can do other stuff with a ride cymbal, than just ride it. I guess at some point, cymbal companies decided to tell you how to use cymbals by silk-screening instructions on them.

A "crash-ride" is really nothing more than a light, crashable ride. If you need a more cutting, focused sound, the crash-ride won't be for you.

-Ryan
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
...cymbal companies decided to tell you how to use cymbals by silk-screening instructions on them.
Ha! Funny and true.

On a similar note, I've always been biased against cymbals that had Rock "instructions" silk-screened on them. Even though I'm primarily a rock drummer, I don't want my cymbals telling me how I should be playing them, or that my cymbals somehow "approve" of how I'm using them! (not crazy about heavy cymbals, either)
 

TTNW

Pioneer Member
..that my cymbals somehow "approve" of how I'm using them! (not crazy about heavy cymbals, either)
That'sfunny. That'sexactly why I cleaned the logos off of all my cymbals (top side)

I also don't like heavy cymbals much. I was playing a gig last week and I was rocking my KC Fast Crash and Session and it was so loud the back of the house guy comes up and says that he can barely hear my crashes at all. No overheads that night. I love the feel of my thinner cymbals but sometimes a room can swallow them.

My Ping and Mediums cut but don't have that same wonderful quick-to-open-up crash ridy feel. Oh well.

I'm thinking of picking up a 20" Rezo and the Z3 19" Thrash Ride for those bash fests.
 

Shedboyxx

Silver Member
You really need to get past the labels, and look at cymbals as cymbals. You don't need to use a crash cymbal as something you whack, and you can do other stuff with a ride cymbal, than just ride it. I guess at some point, cymbal companies decided to tell you how to use cymbals by silk-screening instructions on them.

A "crash-ride" is really nothing more than a light, crashable ride. If you need a more cutting, focused sound, the crash-ride won't be for you.

-Ryan
Good points. Here's some more.

As far as I know the old school Zildjian/Sabian/Turkish way of making cymbals was to pour the metal into the blank molds (there's a name for what the freshly cooled pieces of metal are called that escapes me), hand shape the cymbal down reducing the metal, and then playing the final or close to final product. After listening to what the cymbal sounded like, the head cymbal master called it what he thought it was, crash or ride being the basic choice unless they were hats or splashes.

I'm sure this process has at least been modified at the more established big boy companies, especially for more of the cookie cutter types like A and K Custom Zildjians and many of the Paiste cymbals.
For example, I have a 17" K Custom Fast Crash and since buying it I've played a few others in stores and not heard a world of difference. Not so for my Istanbul Agop 18" Jazz Crash which I got from Tony at Cymbalsonly.com. I had to wait for the right thickness and sound before pushing the button. I believe the Isti's are processed old school with some older gentleman being the caller of crash or ride (just speculating)

I wanted to also point out that this thread primarily addresses the way rock and pop players choose and play their cymbals. If you look to the traditional jazz world, the lines blur between what is used as a crash and a ride. In fact I've heard the overriding theory through out the bop and post bop history of jazz is to have versatile cymbals on both left and right sides, blurring the lines between crash and ride. The traditional jazz drummer focuses on and uses as many sounds out of each cymbal he can, the difference being more character or timbre based than a specified role. Therefore you will find many of the cymbals used in traditional jazz designated as ride cymbals to be much thinner and washier than their pop counterparts. A traditional jazz player also tends to use more areas of a cymbal when riding and crashing to get more or less definition or wash. Not saying rock and fusion players don't ever distinguish between bow and edge but there is less attention to detail if not just for the reason that at higher volumes nobody could hear the difference in colors. Style also plays into this.

I bought my aforementioned Istanbul Jazz Crash (BTW: it's an SE for those who are interested.) with intent to ride on it in lower volume and traditional jazz situations. It does that perfectly. I won't be crash/riding it hard as it just isn't the right cymbal for that and frankly would probably not last that long under those conditions.

I do agree that most commercially stamped crash/rides don't sound particularly good. But I'm always open to using most of my cymbals for either. There are exceptions like my '70's flat ride: ping only, definition city, UGLY crash sound. :) It's a personal choice of what you do with cymbals but there is a great amount more versatility in many cymbals than a mfr.'s stamp will infer.

Jim
 

caddywumpus

Platinum Member
A "crash-ride" is really nothing more than a light, crashable ride.
Actually, there's a lot more to it than that. It has to do with the cymbal's taper. *Usually* (LOTS of exceptions here), a ride has a pretty slow taper from thick to thin from the bell to the edge. A crash has a quicker taper, particularly in the outer 1/3rd of the cymbal. What a crash/ride does, technically in most cases, is it incorporates the thickness and taper of a ride for the inner 1/2 to 2/3rds of the cymbal, with a quick taper-to-thin edge. This makes the cymbal pingy when played on most of the bow, and crashable when played on the edge. This is why crash/rides typically sound "gongy" when crashed, like a heavier crash but with more sensitivity to open up.
 

thelimpingtoad

Senior Member
Actually, there's a lot more to it than that. It has to do with the cymbal's taper. *Usually* (LOTS of exceptions here), a ride has a pretty slow taper from thick to thin from the bell to the edge. A crash has a quicker taper, particularly in the outer 1/3rd of the cymbal. What a crash/ride does, technically in most cases, is it incorporates the thickness and taper of a ride for the inner 1/2 to 2/3rds of the cymbal, with a quick taper-to-thin edge. This makes the cymbal pingy when played on most of the bow, and crashable when played on the edge. This is why crash/rides typically sound "gongy" when crashed, like a heavier crash but with more sensitivity to open up.
Awesome answer... here's the technical side... I wasn't even thinking about it from a physical characteristics standpoint but its interesting to see the specifics too.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
Good points. Here's some more.

As far as I know the old school Zildjian/Sabian/Turkish way of making cymbals was to pour the metal into the blank molds (there's a name for what the freshly cooled pieces of metal are called that escapes me), hand shape the cymbal down reducing the metal, and then playing the final or close to final product. After listening to what the cymbal sounded like, the head cymbal master called it what he thought it was, crash or ride being the basic choice unless they were hats or splashes.

I'm sure this process has at least been modified at the more established big boy companies, especially for more of the cookie cutter types like A and K Custom Zildjians and many of the Paiste cymbals.
For example, I have a 17" K Custom Fast Crash and since buying it I've played a few others in stores and not heard a world of difference. Not so for my Istanbul Agop 18" Jazz Crash which I got from Tony at Cymbalsonly.com. I had to wait for the right thickness and sound before pushing the button. I believe the Isti's are processed old school with some older gentleman being the caller of crash or ride (just speculating)

I wanted to also point out that this thread primarily addresses the way rock and pop players choose and play their cymbals. If you look to the traditional jazz world, the lines blur between what is used as a crash and a ride. In fact I've heard the overriding theory through out the bop and post bop history of jazz is to have versatile cymbals on both left and right sides, blurring the lines between crash and ride. The traditional jazz drummer focuses on and uses as many sounds out of each cymbal he can, the difference being more character or timbre based than a specified role. Therefore you will find many of the cymbals used in traditional jazz designated as ride cymbals to be much thinner and washier than their pop counterparts. A traditional jazz player also tends to use more areas of a cymbal when riding and crashing to get more or less definition or wash. Not saying rock and fusion players don't ever distinguish between bow and edge but there is less attention to detail if not just for the reason that at higher volumes nobody could hear the difference in colors. Style also plays into this.

I bought my aforementioned Istanbul Jazz Crash (BTW: it's an SE for those who are interested.) with intent to ride on it in lower volume and traditional jazz situations. It does that perfectly. I won't be crash/riding it hard as it just isn't the right cymbal for that and frankly would probably not last that long under those conditions.

I do agree that most commercially stamped crash/rides don't sound particularly good. But I'm always open to using most of my cymbals for either. There are exceptions like my '70's flat ride: ping only, definition city, UGLY crash sound. :) It's a personal choice of what you do with cymbals but there is a great amount more versatility in many cymbals than a mfr.'s stamp will infer.

Jim
Good summary Jim. You certainly have to look at how differing players approach the playing of cymbals in the context of different types of music and the sounds they want to hear as a final result. All my rides are crashes and all my crashes are rides based purely on the approach to how I play them within the context of music making. Acoustic jazz music making in my case.

Speaking of Agop congrats on the SE. One of my all time favorites with the "Crash/Ride" label is the Istanbul Agop 19" Mel Lewis Crash Ride. Does everything from having a great woody stick click over a lush low pitch wash to having a full on shimmering crash the dies out quick for going back to ride patterns all in one pie.
 

Cymbalrider

Pioneer Member
You can play anything in the world with a set of old style 14" (medium thin) hi hats an 18" (crash/ride on the thinner side) and (20" medium-thin ride). That set-up worked for many of the best drummers in recording history. Today it's harder to find multipurpose cymbals, mainly I think because the companies would prefer you bought 10 single-purpose cymbals that only sound good in one situation each. Now people have to buy say a dark, washy ride and a bright, pingy one instead of a 1 all-around cymbal.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
You can play anything in the world with a set of old style 14" (medium thin) hi hats an 18" (crash/ride on the thinner side) and (20" medium-thin ride). That set-up worked for many of the best drummers in recording history. Today it's harder to find multipurpose cymbals, mainly I think because the companies would prefer you bought 10 single-purpose cymbals that only sound good in one situation each. Now people have to buy say a dark, washy ride and a bright, pingy one instead of a 1 all-around cymbal.
Nothing wrong with having variety of cymbals at your disposal in my view. I use a variety of different cymbals for concerts/live shows and the recording studio depending on who i'm working with and the sound characteristics of the music at hand for each individual situation. Having a wide selection of cymbals can help give each of these situations its own musical "personality" from my experience.

All the rides can be crashed and all the crashes can be used as rides though.....
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
A one of the minimalists Don mentioned earlier in the thread I have a versatile 17" ProFile crash/ride that I've owned for over 20 years. When I first got it I considered it a lesser cymabl than my Paiste 22" ride and 16" crash and used it just as a heavier crash. The years (and dust?) have been kind to it and it's evolved into a sweet-sounding cymbal.

Basically I get four sounds out of it - standard and bell riding, a small crash sound when glanced with the shoulder of the stick, and a full crash (which I only do occasionally in my current band).

Since there's a bit more wash than a standard ride I tend to play it just an inch or two higher up, closer to the bell than I would the 22" ride, which I used to play more in the centre between bell and rim. There's a bit less margin for error.

All I have are hats, the Profile and a 12" splash so it's an easy lug.
 

jwildman

Senior Member
I've been using a crash ride all throughout my drumming carrer. Although I have only been drumming for three years and I'm still rolling with my first set. But I do hope to have a crash ride in addition to a ride in a few years when I can get a really good kit.
 

volvoguy

Senior Member
Thanks for the clarification. Real interesting, actually! I hadn't thought much about how the profile and taper play in.

I do love the Turkish cymbals. They're just so versatile.

-Ryan
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
Thanks for the clarification. Real interesting, actually! I hadn't thought much about how the profile and taper play in.

I do love the Turkish cymbals. They're just so versatile.

-Ryan
Yes and many of the Turkish cymbals have in their characteristics the "built in" crash/ride effect from their traditional methods of handmade profile shaping and hammering Ryan. That's why many work so well at either application {ride/crash} at the same time from my experience in the music.
 

cnw60

Senior Member
...
For example, I have a 17" K Custom Fast Crash and since buying it I've played a few others in stores and not heard a world of difference. Not so for my Istanbul Agop 18" Jazz Crash which I got from Tony at Cymbalsonly.com. I had to wait for the right thickness and sound before pushing the button. I believe the Isti's are processed old school with some older gentleman being the caller of crash or ride (just speculating)...
Jim
as I recall - the late '70's was when manufacturer's (like Paiste and Sabian after they spun off from Zildjian) started trying to get more consistent with their cymbal making process, so that in fact, if you ordered a '18" medium super fast crash sizzle', it would sound like every other 18" MSFCS cymbal you'd heard from them, thereby making it easier for drummers to know what they were getting without having to treat every cymbal as a unique creation that you'd have to play before you could decide what you wanted to buy.

This also made it easier for them to market - because if you heard somebody playing a specific cymbal, you could be reasonably certain that if you walked into a music store and found that particular maker, model and size cymbal - it would sound pretty much like the other cymbal you heard. This whole argument ignores the reality of the listening environment and many other variables that affect how you hear any cymbal, but let's just leave that aside for the sake of argument.

It seems like there are advantages and disadvantages to both the old school and the new school ways of making cymbals IMO. Can you imagine if you had to play every Steinway grand piano to find the one that sounds just right to you, or a trumpet or sax or whatever...? It would be crazy. But OTOH, there are certain guitars, violins and other instruments have a special sound or feel to them that can only be found by holding and playing that particular instrument - but still, if you pulled 100 Martin D Classic's or 100 Fender Strats and played them, the difference between each one would be so subtle that it wouldn't come close to the variations you'd find between 100 different 20" Avedis Zildjian medium ride cymbals from pre-1975.

So they made our lives easier by standardizing the process, but at the same time, we lost some of the richness that existed before. Now the Turkish makers have come along and given us the old way back again - so really we've got the best of both worlds and the variety that exists between all of the different makers and models and types of cymbals that are on the market now is almost overwhelming.
 

thelimpingtoad

Senior Member
listen to linkin parks new divide, during the chorus hes crashing/riding not sure howta explain really.
I think we're talking about 2 different things in this thread... I got a little confused earlier about it too... but it seems there is the technique called "Crash/Riding" (riding a crash cymbal) which is what you and some of the other posters are discussing...

And then there is what I originally meant cymbals labelled as "Crash/Ride" cymbals.
It seems like the best answer is that they are overall versatile cymbals that could be used to ride with tip of stick like a ride, on the bell with tip or shoulder, or struck as a crash on the side.
 
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