Continuing the Income thread

Hey guys!
Just for the record, I didn’t start this thread. I was googling salaries just to see what kind of information is available. Members of my Patreon, as well as a few touring students of mine, seemed to have misinformation from the internet . I was curious what was out there. At the top of the Google list was a drummer world Thread entitled, how much do drummers earn or something to that effect . I read it, wanted to post , but was unable to find the thread after I joined , so I just made a new thread. the topic already existed here. It’s not as if income is my only concern, it’s just one facet of the business. If you don’t have the necessary skills and talent, chances are income won’t be an issue. I try to help those who don’t know what to ask for in the different types of work skilled drummers are called for . That’s all.

I have received many thank you emails from drummers around the world who have taken my advice and have managed to earn good salaries for themselves . I only wanted to share info, and to inform drummers that I do have A Patreon where I share all info concerning drums , drumming and how to make drumming your career, if that’s your intention .
Teaching for me is an inconsequential income, it accounts for less than 5% of what I earn yearly . I play music with musicians. Nearly every day and every night. That’s how I feed my family and support our lifestyle. No producing, no band leading, no clinics , and I’ve never had another income source. Only freelance drumming. I try to take one or two nights off and go on an occasional vacation because I do have a family . I do this locally in LA, I did it locally in New York, as well as Boston, and I also go on the road if it is the right circumstance . It is a privilege for me to be able to share information with other drummers on how I got to this point . You are either interested or not, it’s all good, I wish everyone the best. Bernard wrote me an email to tell me that this thread was getting heated, and I can’t understand why, it’s just information.
 
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DrumEatDrum said:
Some time ago I went back to one of my old drum teachers for a new round of lessons.

He had spent several years touring with a Big Name artist.

When I asked what happened, he explained management kept cutting his pay. They would say it's only temporary, just for this run of shows, etc, but then they would cut it again, and again, until he felt the level of commitment involved was no longer worth the severely reduced pay. But he also said they replaced him with *insert name drummer* who would easily command a much higher pay rate. so he didn't think it made much sense. Of course, if they simply wanted him gone, they didn't need to play the reduced pay game, they could have just canned him. Who knows.

As few years ago at NAMM, I was in on a conversation of someone who lost a gig because they got undercut by an almost-famous musician who was willing to do the gig for cheap just to get back in the game after some fame set backs.

It's brutal out there.

I just hired someone for my (not music related) business from the music business. He says you wouldn't believe how some famous people in the music business make no money. On the other hand, I have a recent client who bought a very nice house based on touring/recording with various bands.

So it's easy to see how one person's financial success at any one gig has little to no bearing on someone else's financial success doing similar or even the same exact, gig
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Not to play devils advocate, but always consider ego, and consider the source . The story you mentioned is common, it has happened to me . But if you have enough going on, and a good enough reputation, it doesn’t make sense to go on tour for low rates . I was asked by one profile artist if I was willing to except the lower salary of the new drummer they were considering, and I said no. Simply because it pretty much equaled what I would make sleeping in my own bed under my own roof with my family . At least they gave me the option of keeping the gig. For the same or less than what I earn staying home. Ha! Hell no.

I have also been in situations where drummers would tell me that they left a gig because of a pay cut, but I would later find out that they were let go for other reasons, being personality or musical . At one point in my career I auditioned for a gig with an amazing paycheck, and the drummer that was doing it before was telling people that he got undercut which is why he wasn’t on the gig anymore. And that was not the case . In fact what I asked for was more. Definitely consider the source and ego. Many musicians say they left a gig due to a pay cut , when in fact that is not always the truth. No one wants to admit that maybe the artist wanted a change.
It’s definitely brutal out there , but it’s no different than any other freelance profession with a useless union. There are ways to make it less brutal .
 
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Push pull stroke said:
I’ve heard there are name players still living with their parents.
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A) what constitutes a name player in the 2019 insta world?
B) depending on the wealth level of their parents and size of their home, that may be a smart decision. Could be they’re still making 70 K plus a year, and saving a ton of money . Depending what you mean by “name” .

Me personally, I come from nothing really. Decent home , always food on the table and a gift at Xmas. I had no choice but to move out and pay bills with my drums at 18. But I always tell younger drummers to take advantage of their resources if they have them. I did not. But many known jazz/fusion musicians who are now 60 plus , come from wealthy families. It’s how many of them avoided the hustle of having to play sessions and events for money .
 
Thanks! Yes If you sign up for the monthly video which I casually make with my iPhone, you will have access to everything in that members area, including supplemental videos or just plain rants on topics . ?
 
I've noticed a lot of takes on this forum (and elsewhere) that Patreon and GoFundMe are a bad thing. It seems like some people view it as a kind of freeloading or panhandling. I've seen some comments like, "I didn't have to ask for handouts," or some such thing.

I don't think of it like that at all. It's a way to charge for services, and as long as people are willing to pay for it, I don't see what there is to complain about. When I was learning to play drums, I had no access to the top pros I was into. Now, I can connect directly with musicians I would have never been able to in my younger years. I've sponsored a couple PledgeMusic projects over the years and got some extremely cool perks from it, even a Skype call with one of my drumming heroes. And considering how tough times are these days for musicians, with recording revenues drying up in recent years, it feels crazy to throw shade at players for taking advantage of a way to make a living.
 
8Mile said:
I've noticed a lot of takes on this forum (and elsewhere) that Patreon and GoFundMe are a bad thing. It seems like some people view it as a kind of freeloading or panhandling. I've seen some comments like, "I didn't have to ask for handouts," or some such thing.

I don't think of it like that at all. It's a way to charge for services, and as long as people are willing to pay for it, I don't see what there is to complain about. When I was learning to play drums, I had no access to the top pros I was into. Now, I can connect directly with musicians I would have never been able to in my younger years. I've sponsored a couple PledgeMusic projects over the years and got some extremely cool perks from it, even a Skype call with one of my drumming heroes. And considering how tough times are these days for musicians, with recording revenues drying up in recent years, it feels crazy to throw shade at players for taking advantage of a way to make a living.
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Very true.. There is clickbait adds where people try to lure you in with misinformation or garbage to hit their site and get them ad revenue, and there is legit drummers offering services. I did a Skype lesson last week and it was fantastic. We live nowhere near each other and I dig his material, way of teaching and style.

Same with patron. No one is forcing anyone to pay the MINIMAL amount of money most of these dudes charge. Many charge low amounts of money in hopes of getting more people on there to give very valuable information. Now, If someone is in here every day posting 30 second clip video teasers with "Check out my Patron for the full video" on it, that would get old in a hurry. But this is probibly the most reasonable place for a DRUMMER to let other drummers know they are on there. Heck, half the people here probibly don't even know Patron exists.

The quote "Everybody wants you to do good, just not as good as them" comes to mind. I feel jealousy is a huge cause of snide comments to these things. Just because someone is making some money and gaining popularity doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong. You just need to be careful as there are people that make Patron sites or give skype lessons that shouldn't be as well. Do your research.

Edit - This wasn't directed at you, just liked your post!
 
I've been following this thread with much interest. I'd like to thank you Steve. This is an extremely delicate subject, on par with religion and politics, that tends to bring out people's true colors. It takes a lot of stones to tackle this. I'm sure you had a good idea what you would come up against. I can't think of a better way to state your case than you already have. Very articulate. There will always be haters as you know. I thought all your responses were well balanced and respectful to everyone on this delicate subject. So way to go for navigating those ticky waters with skill and grace.

If you look at it objectively, 5 dollars a month....it's 2 cups of coffee lol. I think it's a great bargain, for anyone who needs/wants that particular, specific "not found anywhere else" information. It's like consulting with a lawyer. It's a brave new world that's still part wild west, and if you can make money this way, more power to you brother.

Instead of the haters looking on it as a sort of panhandling (give me a break) it could be viewed as a cue...it could be a new angle to profit from. Everyone has an area of expertise....exploit it, right? You're kind of showing a legitimate way to make some do re mi, in addition to enhancing your own money making machine. It's all voluntary as far as your clientele is concerned, so there's absolutely no dirty angle to it on your part, period. Take it or leave it, no harm no foul, no hard feelings..

I hope it does well for you. Your target is a demographic that I would guess does not have a lot of disposable income though, sad face.

I have to admit, I wasn't aware of you as a drummer until now. Time to check you out. Thanks for showing up and livening up the place.
 
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Steve Hass said:
Not to play devils advocate, but always consider ego, and consider the source . The story you mentioned is common, it has happened to me . But if you have enough going on, and a good enough reputation, it doesn’t make sense to go on tour for low rates . I was asked by one profile artist if I was willing to except the lower salary of the new drummer they were considering, and I said no. Simply because it pretty much equaled what I would make sleeping in my own bed under my own roof with my family . At least they gave me the option of keeping the gig. For the same or less than what I earn staying home. Ha! Hell no.

I have also been in situations where drummers would tell me that they left a gig because of a pay cut, but I would later find out that they were let go for other reasons, being personality or musical . At one point in my career I auditioned for a gig with an amazing paycheck, and the drummer that was doing it before was telling people that he got undercut which is why he wasn’t on the gig anymore. And that was not the case . In fact what I asked for was more. Definitely consider the source and ego. Many musicians say they left a gig due to a pay cut , when in fact that is not always the truth. No one wants to admit that maybe the artist wanted a change.
It’s definitely brutal out there , but it’s no different than any other freelance profession with a useless union. There are ways to make it less brutal .
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I hear ya. There is always a 2nd side to a story. I think perhaps said artist just got it in their head they really wanted to the name player., but were too polite to just fire who they had, so they forced him to quit. Stuff like that happens in many jobs, not just bands.

I recall Jason Sutter saying he got let go from Foreigner simply because Mark Shulman suddenly became available, and Mick Jones and Mark had a long-standing working relationship. Music ability had nothing to do with it.

I recall way back with Ray Luzier, well before Korn or David Lee Roth, he got a high profile gig with a name artist. And then the name artists manager let him go for not being a "name player".

You never know what's going through an artist's head, and it's not always grounded in reality. Like way back when Journey fired Steve Smith and they auditioned every name drummer under the sun. You can't tell me all those big-name guys couldn't cut the gig musically. But the band was so out of touch with any sense of why they fired Steve or what they wanted to replace him with, so they kept turning down big talent.

Or Rainbow. Richie Blackmore fired guys out of the band left and right. It didn't matter how many gold and platinum albums the band earned, Richie was never satisfied with anyone.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
Or Rainbow. Richie Blackmore fired guys out of the band left and right. It didn't matter how many gold and platinum albums the band earned, Richie was never satisfied with anyone.
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I have read on more than one occasion Richie did this simply to 'keep things fresh and new' in his band, not always having the same sound.
Not very loyal of him, but this was his way. A cold perspective but its just business to him.
 
opentune said:
I have read on more than one occasion Richie did this simply to 'keep things fresh and new' in his band, not always having the same sound.
Not very loyal of him, but this was his way. A cold perspective but its just business to him.
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Perhaps, but I don't know. There is a documentary floating around youtube about Riche Blackmore's life, and he admits he fired Graham Bonnet simply because he didn't like Graham's hair cut. Nothing musical about it.

Some guys were barely in Rainbow long enough to even establish themselves as having a sound to change.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
You never know what's going through an artist's head, and it's not always grounded in reality. Like way back when Journey fired Steve Smith and they auditioned every name drummer under the sun. You can't tell me all those big-name guys couldn't cut the gig musically. But the band was so out of touch with any sense of why they fired Steve or what they wanted to replace him with, so they kept turning down big talent.
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Didn't they get rid of him for refusing to play to a metronome or something like that?

Billy Joel takes some beating when he fired everyone barring Liberty and even dumped him further down the line.

Watch the documentary Hired Gun
 
mikyok said:
Watch the documentary Hired Gun
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A nice documentary, and fairly accurate. Everyone's situation and perspective is different.

But it's the title that tells the tale: Hired Gun. Compared to a band where there are founding members, an artist hires their players. But unlike a normal business, there are no policies for hiring, or firing. Those decisions are made for a variety of subjective reasons, and there's nothing the player can do about them. "I got fired (or passed over for the gig) because 1) I'm old, 2) I'm bald, 3) I'm male/female, 4) I don't look like a rocker, 5) the bass player's wife doesn't like me, 6) another player offered to do it for less... " etc. There's no legal recourse for the decisions made by the artist in those "hired gun" situations, just as there are no pay guidelines (except for union dates.)

Bermuda
 
mikyok said:
Didn't they get rid of him for refusing to play to a metronome or something like that?
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Not quite.

Smith had developed his behind the beat feel with Ross Valory on the previous 4 Journey studio albums, which had propelled the band to superstardom, so naturally, that's what Steve and Ross were ready to deliver again.

But Cain had started writing with drum machines and giving Perry demos with perfect drum machine tracks. Perry had done his solo album with a studio drummer who had played to a click, and Perry wanted that more perfect time, with also a more on top of the bear eel.

So partway through the recording of the album Raised on Radio, Perry had Smith and Ross Valory fired because he wanted to change the feel from what Smith and Valory usually did to a more studio drummer-to-a-click feel. Johnathan Cain and Neal Schol went along because they had promised Steve Perry could have full control in the studio.

It wasn't that Steve Smith refused to use a metronome, it's just he had never done it before and wasn't expecting or prepared to be told to completely change his sound and change what had been working.

Though in an odd twist, Journey manager Herbie Herbert was so mad at Perry over firing Smith, that he kept Smith on the payroll for a while.
Decades later Perry would say if he could do it all over again, he wouldn't have fired Smith and Valory.

After getting canned from Journey, Bryan Admas hired Steve Smith. Smith only appeared on one track (the massive hit "Heaven") because Smith got fired from the rest of the album due to his still not having experience playing to click. After that. Smith said he woodshedded on playing to a click, which, of course, led him to appear on countless albums since them.

The point being Journey wasn't happy with any of the many worthy drummers who auditioned and were fully capable of doing the gig., not because of money, not because the drummers weren't skilled or weren't qualified, but because they had no clear vision on what they were trying to accomplish in replacing Smith.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
Not quite.

Smith had developed his behind the beat feel with Ross Valory on the previous 4 Journey studio albums, which had propelled the band to superstardom, so naturally, that's what Steve and Ross were ready to deliver again.

But Cain had started writing with drum machines and giving Perry demos with perfect drum machine tracks. Perry had done his solo album with a studio drummer who had played to a click, and Perry wanted that more perfect time, with also a more on top of the bear eel.

So partway through the recording of the album Raised on Radio, Perry had Smith and Ross Valory fired because he wanted to change the feel from what Smith and Valory usually did to a more studio drummer-to-a-click feel. Johnathan Cain and Neal Schol went along because they had promised Steve Perry could have full control in the studio.

It wasn't that Steve Smith refused to use a metronome, it's just he had never done it before and wasn't expecting or prepared to be told to completely change his sound and change what had been working.

Though in an odd twist, Journey manager Herbie Herbert was so mad at Perry over firing Smith, that he kept Smith on the payroll for a while.
Decades later Perry would say if he could do it all over again, he wouldn't have fired Smith and Valory.

After getting canned from Journey, Bryan Admas hired Steve Smith. Smith only appeared on one track (the massive hit "Heaven") because Smith got fired from the rest of the album due to his still not having experience playing to click. After that. Smith said he woodshedded on playing to a click, which, of course, led him to appear on countless albums since them.

The point being Journey wasn't happy with any of the many worthy drummers who auditioned and were fully capable of doing the gig., not because of money, not because the drummers weren't skilled or weren't qualified, but because they had no clear vision on what they were trying to accomplish in replacing Smith.
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I’m not saying Steve Perry acted like a jackass. I would never say that. I would never say that his arrogance cost him a great drummer and a great working relationship. I would never say that a LOT of singers have that arrogance problem. I sure wouldn’t say it, or even imply it. No sir. LOL
 
Woah old thread. This one got weird quickly but there was still some really valuable discourse in it. I did some searching and was unable to find the previously mentioned income thread?

I just wanted to add this video into the discussion for the sake of keeping an interesting subject alive:

 
I've actually been a freelance drummer myself for the past few years and I've experienced the highs and lows of it all. I can vouch for the fact that sustaining a steady income can be a major challenge, but when I get the chance to create some music magic, it all feels worth it.

On a similar note, I opened an old vinyl records store last year. Crazy different from drumming, but it's another passion of mine. I faced a whole new set of challenges like procurement, marketing, and customer service. Some days felt like I was drumming to the beat of chaos! o_O

But this one blog I stumbled upon, man, it was a lifesaver. I still visit it for articles on how to tackle business-related issues. Made me realize every field has its own set of hurdles, you just gotta find the rhythm and drum along.
 
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