Drumdame

Silver Member
Yes the sound changes. It get less bright, less harsh, and a bit more mellow sounding over time due to oxidation (patina)
Thank you!
 

Out of Round

Active Member
Philosophical arguments aside, pleased to report that in lieu of the presumably extinct Paiste cleaner, I successfully used a lime to gently clean (not "polish") a 2002 from '08. This cymbal was last cleaned with the Paiste cleaner maybe 7 years ago. Pictures don't convey it very well, but grime and stick marks came off. Oxidized spots remained, but I wasn't expecting that anyway.
Before:
20220113_155209.jpg
After:

20220113_155926.jpg
 
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Drumdame

Silver Member
Philosophical arguments aside, pleased to report that in lieu of the presumably extinct Paiste cleaner, I successfully used a lime to gently clean (not "polish") a 2002 from '08. This cymbal was last cleaned with the Paiste cleaner maybe 7 years ago. Pictures don't convey it very well, but grime and stick marks came off. Oxidized spots remained, but I wasn't expecting that anyway.
Before:
View attachment 112788
After:

View attachment 112789
Great job! thanks for the tip!
 

yammyfan

Senior Member
You don't wanna have petina? it makes cymbals sound nice.
If you choose wisely in the first place, you don't have to rely on crud to make your cymbals sound nice. Just sayin'...
Does anybody really know if it changes the sound if you have brand new crisp cymbals versus well used?
I suppose that somebody could buy a brand new cymbal, record it once then put it away for years and years to allow it to oxidize. After 30-40 years the cymbal could be pulled out of storage and recorded again using the identical equipment in the identical room then analyze the audio, but that seems like a lot of trouble. You couldn't play the cymbal the whole time of course because that could alter the structure of the metal, skewing the results.

Given the above, I would wager that no, nobody really knows if patina changes the sound for the better.
 

Drumdame

Silver Member
I just bought the Sabian hhx Evolution Dave Weckl Signature Cymbol Pack and was wondering if anyone is familiar with that because I would like to know someone's opinion on the 21" crash/ride. I play nostalgic Hard Rock and so far I'm not liking it. The Bell is nice sounding clear & distinct but the crash/ride is very bright with a Reverb that I'm not used to at all. I do like the rest of the cymbal pack... I'm trying to decide whether to return the entire pack or just sell the 21" ride. Or if I change my sticks would that change the sound? My son set it up today and I've only played a few songs so maybe too quick on making a decision but it seems like I'm not really satisfied with that particular cymbal. Any thoughts?

Drummer_D
 

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yammyfan

Senior Member
I just bought the Sabian hhx Evolution Dave Weckl Signature Cymbol Pack and was wondering if anyone is familiar with that because I would like to know someone's opinion on the 21" crash/ride. I play nostalgic Hard Rock and so far I'm not liking it. The Bell is nice sounding clear & distinct but the crash/ride is very bright with a Reverb that I'm not used to at all. I do like the rest of the cymbal pack... I'm trying to decide whether to return the entire pack or just sell the 21" ride. Or if I change my sticks would that change the sound? My son set it up today and I've only played a few songs so maybe too quick on making a decision but it seems like I'm not really satisfied with that particular cymbal. Any thoughts?

Drummer_D
It takes a while; hours at a minimum and typically a few days - for your ears to acclimatize to new cymbals, especially if they're substantially different from what you had before. It can be quite jarring.

I would give it another day or two to see if the new cymbal's charm comes through. You'll know by then.
 

Drumdame

Silver Member
It takes a while; hours at a minimum and typically a few days - for your ears to acclimatize to new cymbals, especially if they're substantially different from what you had before. It can be quite jarring.

I would give it another day or two to see if the new cymbal's charm comes through. You'll know by then.
Thank you so much for your feedback. My son and I looked at so many video cymbal packs and we both agreed that this is the one we like. On the other hand my son loves what the 21-inch crash ride sounds like though I wasn't impressed but like I said I only covered a couple of songs and I'm going to give it another try before I make a decision.

Drummer_D
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Diamond Member
If you choose wisely in the first place, you don't have to rely on crud to make your cymbals sound nice. Just sayin'...

I suppose that somebody could buy a brand new cymbal, record it once then put it away for years and years to allow it to oxidize. After 30-40 years the cymbal could be pulled out of storage and recorded again using the identical equipment in the identical room then analyze the audio, but that seems like a lot of trouble. You couldn't play the cymbal the whole time of course because that could alter the structure of the metal, skewing the results.

Given the above, I would wager that no, nobody really knows if patina changes the sound for the better.

I actually do have 2 cymbals that I have had for almost 40issh years 9got new in 1979 and 81), and they have a very small amount of patina, but also have definitely "darkened" over time just to to use, and exposure to light, dark, cigarrete smoke, heat and cold etc...

I think I have maybe actually cleaned them 2 or 3 times total as well.

i don't think the patina is the specific reason for the sound change.

I also own 6 Zildjians from the 1950's (my dads) that came to me in just about brand new condition...probably a little "browner" than when new, and not with actual pitting or anything...and they have NOT changed much in sound from when I started using them in the 70's. They also didn't put the shiny coating stuff on those old cymbals...it is just the natural metallic shine of the metal
 

pocket player

Junior Member
JMO, as far as cleaning cymbals, unless aged cymbals really upsets me or if i needed a cosmetic flashy cymbal look for the good of the band presence , i think its a waste of energy to clean them, i would rather use that energy on practicing ,which will make me a better drummer. But i can agree why people like shinny cymbals.
 

SomeBadDrummer

Platinum Member
Never bought a cymbal pack, never will. I choose cymbals one at a time as the need and desire arises, and use them until they no longer fulfill my purposes. Having said that, I change cymbals about as often as Dick’s house cat. My Zildjians are everything I want and need.
 

Drumdame

Silver Member
Never bought a cymbal pack, never will. I choose cymbals one at a time as the need and desire arises, and use them until they no longer fulfill my purposes. Having said that, I change cymbals about as often as Dick’s house cat. My Zildjians are everything I want and need.
Looks like we got a satisfied drummer in the Drummerworld Forum who's happy with his Zildjians! Happy for you!

Drummer_D
 
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differentdrummer

New Member
So does anyone have any experience in cleaning or treating old 50's Avedis? I have a few I'd like to clean and keep the dark rich matt gold color opposed to polishing to a shine or lightening the tone at all. One cymbal has quite a few black dots on it which might be meldew. And in general, what looks like dirt between the lathing.

I'm frightened about starting any process which once started you'd be committed to finishing for consistently, so wondering if there's a way of peeling back the layers incrementally until I'm happy.

I was thinking of using warm water and bit of washing up liquid, I'm assuming this might loosen the dirt without actually eating into the patina? Not sure.
 

Drumdame

Silver Member
So does anyone have any experience in cleaning or treating old 50's Avedis? I have a few I'd like to clean and keep the dark rich matt gold color opposed to polishing to a shine or lightening the tone at all. One cymbal has quite a few black dots on it which might be meldew. And in general, what looks like dirt between the lathing.

I'm frightened about starting any process which once started you'd be committed to finishing for consistently, so wondering if there's a way of peeling back the layers incrementally until I'm happy.

I was thinking of using warm water and bit of washing up liquid, I'm assuming this might loosen the dirt without actually eating into the patina? Not sure.
Although I don't have any experience cleaning cymbals I don't see the harm in using warm water and a gentle dishwashing liquid and I would absolutely not use Dawn that is way too harsh. Hope this helps.

Drummer_D
 
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C.M. Jones

Diamond Member
So does anyone have any experience in cleaning or treating old 50's Avedis? I have a few I'd like to clean and keep the dark rich matt gold color opposed to polishing to a shine or lightening the tone at all. One cymbal has quite a few black dots on it which might be meldew. And in general, what looks like dirt between the lathing.

I'm frightened about starting any process which once started you'd be committed to finishing for consistently, so wondering if there's a way of peeling back the layers incrementally until I'm happy.

I was thinking of using warm water and bit of washing up liquid, I'm assuming this might loosen the dirt without actually eating into the patina? Not sure.
I wouldn't apply water or any other substance to an Avedis from the '50s. Vintage cymbals should be left alone in my opinion. That they have an age-bitten look, a component of which is a bit of grime, is only right and proper.

For the record, Zildjian recommends cleaning brilliant-finish cymbals only (for instance, A Customs). For all other finishes, they suggest wiping them gently with a dry cloth, nothing more. I play the A Avedis series, Zildjian's tribute to vintage As, and I was instructed by a Zildjian rep not to clean them at all, just to keep them free of dust and otherwise let time run its course. That's exactly what I'm doing.
 

C.M. Jones

Diamond Member
Ah ok thanks, that confirms my hesitation, you can't clean something like a small spot or something without actually cleaning the whole cymbal. I'd hate to ruin the patina.
It's really a matter of taste more than a universal rule. I don't think you'd destroy the cymbal by cleaning it, but you could certainly erase some of its vintage visual attributes, as well as -- and this possibility is a topic of passionate debate -- alter its sound. Cymbal cleaning can be a testy proposition. Some players advocate it; others shun it. For me, it depends on the cymbal's finish. I've cleaned brilliant cymbals in the past (I don't own any now), but when it comes to anything with a vintage vibe, even if it's a new cymbal designed to look vintage, I'm inclined to leave it alone.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Diamond Member
so I have a set of Avedis Zildjians from 1948, and 1955, and have used warm water and Dawn detergent in the past. But I don't run water over the cymbal - like submerge the cymbal in the sink. I used one small, TicTac sized drop of Dawn in a Tupperware bowl of water and wet the towel down in the bowl. Then just wiped around the cymbals once or twice, and then followed with a dry cloth. It was mosly to get dust off...I have done that with those cymbals 3 times in the past 40 years...
 

Drumdame

Silver Member
I'm learning as I am reading and now I changed my mind about the warm water and gentle dishwashing liquid. I love natural patina and why not on a beautiful vintge cymbal just dust it off with a dry cloth and enjoy the look and sound of a true vintage cymbal!

Drummer_D
 

differentdrummer

New Member
Thanks for your replies and welcoming me to the forum.

I think what I'm looking for cleaner wise to remove the odd blemish and little spots of dirt and such doesn't really exist by the sounds of it. As trying to remove one layer will undoubtedly remove the layer beneath. I think I'll take a rain check on the idea then.

I was just looking at an old Avedis on eBay just now which has been polished up to a mirror shine, it looked lovely and new but lost that vintage charm. They are quite bright sounding cymbals anyway so a bit of patina probably helps calm them down a bit.
 

C.M. Jones

Diamond Member
. . . so a bit of patina probably helps calm them down a bit.
That's also the opinion of Paul Francis, former director of cymbal technology at Zildjian. He was instrumental in creating the A Avedis line in 2016. The series has a factory-applied patina finish, which is intended to convey both a vintage look and sound. Francis stated in an interview that patina "warms" a cymbal's tone. Like so many sonic elements, that claim is debatable, but I'll take Paul's word for it. He's knows a lot more about cymbals than I do.
 
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