Can I get some tips on resonance?

<(' . '<)

Senior Member
So I am going to customize a kit I'm going to buy soon, a Pearl ELX or EXR. I haven't decided whether I should get a wrap kit (EXR) or lacquer (ELX). I know the rubber grommets on the lugs would affect sound (I'd take them off, I'm assuming it would dampen the shells, also replacing with tube lugs). I'm mainly looking for what gives the best most natural shell sound. I would replace the ISS mounts with Opti mounts (ISS have to affect the top head in some way if I'm wrong, I'm just assuming again). My main questions are listed below.

1.) Is there a big resonance difference in wrap and lacquer?

2.) Does the type of hoop affect resonance? (I know the heavier the hoops the lower the tuning because of more mass)

3.) Not a question but I want poplar because it is my favorite wood to use so please no suggestions on a Masters kit or anything else unless it'd be poplar.

Thanks
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
I can't imagine the rubber grommets affecting much on wooden drums. I know there have been a few discussions on removing them from metal snares but You may need an oscilloscope to notice anything of,importance
 

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
I don't want my shells to resonate.

The more a shell resonates the more it cancels out head vibration/resonance.
 

tard

Gold Member
I don't want my shells to resonate.

The more a shell resonates the more it cancels out head vibration/resonance.
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me at all, the shell resonance is what gives the warmth and tone to the sound, the head excites the shell and the shell resonates, without the shell resonance you might as well have roto toms. There is a difference between resonance and sustain. As KIS posted in another thread: " What most players perceive as sustain, is in fact head sustain. It's related to shell resonance sustain, but not linked to it in terms of performance. Head sustain is largely dictated by bearing edges, tuning, head selection, & hoops, & is only slightly affected by shell sustain"

As for the OP's questions:

Yes depending on the thickness of the shell lacquer will resonate more than a wrap, on a really thin shell even lacquer will resonate less than a oil rubbed finish.

Yes a triple flanged hoop will resonate more than a cast hoop.
 
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BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
I think at the level of ELX/EXR drums it's splitting hairs.

The wrap will give you less resonance in theory but there are so many other factors at play that I don't think it's an issue in the slightest.

Definitely change the mounts though. The ISS mounts are really horrendous. They've been known to pull the hoops out of round severely.
 

<(' . '<)

Senior Member
As for the OP's questions:

Yes depending on the thickness of the shell lacquer will resonate more than a wrap, on a really thin shell even lacquer will resonate less than a oil rubbed finish.

Yes a triple flanged hoop will resonate more than a cast hoop.
It's 6 ply and 1/4" thick which would be better or could it go either way?

Would 1.6mm, 2.3mm, or 3.0mm triple flangedbe best or is that preference at that point?
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
2.3mm hoops will hold the tuning slightly better but will dampen the drum slightly more than a 1.6mm hoop. It's a trade-off. It's not a huge difference though and in my experience, I've never had an issue with 1.6mm hoops.
 

tard

Gold Member
It's 6 ply and 1/4" thick which would be better or could it go either way?

Would 1.6mm, 2.3mm, or 3.0mm triple flangedbe best or is that preference at that point?
Id say either way, wrap probably wont affect that shell much at all especially with the amount of hardware that is already attached to it, as for the hoops the thinner the better but 1.6mm have a tendency to be a bit flimsy and can warp/bend if you not careful with them which is probably why the 2.3mm are the most poplar.
 

<(' . '<)

Senior Member
I've been hearing a lot about S-Hoops, any knowledge on those? From what I'm seeing it's a 2.3mm with the characteristics of a die cast hoop, it seems useful in protecting the bearing edges, making rim shots easier, and holding rings in place as well. Would this be the "best of both worlds" kind of thing or is it just a hyped up hoop?
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
I've been hearing a lot about S-Hoops, any knowledge on those? From what I'm seeing it's a 2.3mm with the characteristics of a die cast hoop, it seems useful in protecting the bearing edges, making rim shots easier, and holding rings in place as well. Would this be the "best of both worlds" kind of thing or is it just a hyped up hoop?
S-Hoops are very, very good. They are a good solution but I would say they sound more like triple-flanged hoops than cast. They are definitely very rigid and hold the tuning well. Not over-hyped at all, they're between triple-flanged and cast.
 

<(' . '<)

Senior Member
Are they only available in chrome? I'm thinking of getting strada white EXR's and replacing the hardware with brass hoops and tube lugs.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
I don't want my shells to resonate.

The more a shell resonates the more it cancels out head vibration/resonance.
Having shells that resonate very little, or not at all, is a most valid approach, but your statement is mostly not true. I say mostly, because, depending on how you interpret your statement, it is correct, to a degree.

If we took your thinking to the extreme, & made a drum out of concrete, it really wouldn't sound very good, or at least, what we've come to expect a drum to sound like. A shell does indeed "soak up" certain frequencies in the act of resonating, but it also amplifies others. In other words, it "shapes" the sound produced by the heads. A resonant shell promotes head sustain, but it's biggest contribution is allowing the shell fundamental to make itself present over the sound produced by the heads alone.

Many regard resonance and sustain as one & the same thing when applied to drums. What most perceive as sustain is head sustain. It's not difficult to get the heads on a totally non resonant shell to sustain for a long time. That's mainly a product of bearing edge profile, hoop mass, head selection, & tuning, but that sustain has little value in all but the lowest dynamic of music settings. Shell resonance shapes mainly the initial fundamental, & that lasts for between 1 & 2 seconds only. That said, a highly resonant shell will continue to add tone to the head sustain by sympathetic means. A non resonant shell usually delivers a very weak fundamental tone. They have little "voice" & body, concentrating instead on attack shaped by the shell chamber, & followed by head sustain, that's mostly lost in a musical setting. Non resonant shells however, in pure decibel terms, will always be louder than resonant shell drums.
 

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
Having shells that resonate very little, or not at all, is a most valid approach, but your statement is mostly not true. I say mostly, because, depending on how you interpret your statement, it is correct, to a degree.

If we took your thinking to the extreme, & made a drum out of concrete, it really wouldn't sound very good, or at least, what we've come to expect a drum to sound like. A shell does indeed "soak up" certain frequencies in the act of resonating, but it also amplifies others. In other words, it "shapes" the sound produced by the heads. A resonant shell promotes head sustain, but it's biggest contribution is allowing the shell fundamental to make itself present over the sound produced by the heads alone.

Many regard resonance and sustain as one & the same thing when applied to drums. What most perceive as sustain is head sustain. It's not difficult to get the heads on a totally non resonant shell to sustain for a long time. That's mainly a product of bearing edge profile, hoop mass, head selection, & tuning, but that sustain has little value in all but the lowest dynamic of music settings. Shell resonance shapes mainly the initial fundamental, & that lasts for between 1 & 2 seconds only. That said, a highly resonant shell will continue to add tone to the head sustain by sympathetic means. A non resonant shell usually delivers a very weak fundamental tone. They have little "voice" & body, concentrating instead on attack shaped by the shell chamber, & followed by head sustain, that's mostly lost in a musical setting. Non resonant shells however, in pure decibel terms, will always be louder than resonant shell drums.

Actually SONOR did research in the 80's and determined that a drum shell made concrete would allow the heads to produce the purest tone. Agreed- it wouldn't sound like drums that we're used to hearing, but that's not its saying anything you wouldn't want to hear.

The major contributing factor to the fundamental tone of a drum is its internal volume.
There are other factors that affect a drums ability to produce tone(s), the main being how the shell is coupled to the floor, how its grounded.

Gary Gauger came up with a industry changing discovery (also in the 80's) where he isolated a drum on rubber mounts, he went on to patent the product and called it RIMS (Resonance Isolation Mounting System). His theory being the drum shell on a RIMS mount was now free to resonate, produce more tone and a stronger fundamental through bypassing the nasty tone robbing mounting bracket bolted directly to the shell.

Gauger demonstrated this potential by striking the drum mounted in a traditional way, and then striking the drum while suspending it in his hand. You can do this experiment yourself using your own drums, the difference in tone is indisputable. The drumming world ate it up, the sound was proof. The idea that anything on the shell adds to the drums inability to produce sound to its fullest was now a proven fact in some peoples minds. Wraps were then widely accepted as tone robbing, direct mounted hardware- tone robbing. Even today some say lacquer on the shell is tone robbing.

What most are blind to realize with Gaugers experiment is, while he did free the drum from its floor coupled mount (stand, bass drum, whatever...) he did not remove any of the (allegedly) tone robbing hardware from the drum shell itself, it remained on the shell when he held it in his hand, struck it and it produced a noticeable difference in sound. Again, you can do this same experiment with your own drums, weather they're mounted on RIMS type devises or not, there'll be a difference in sound.

Its not what's on the drum shell that keeps it from more resonance and a clearer fundamental, it was how the drum is grounded, how it interacts with the floor and the material between it and the floor, this affects the drumheads ability to produce sound. One can argue that yes... whatever you put directly on the shell affects the heads ability to produce a desired tone. Although this is somewhat true, its more due in relation to how the said shell interacts with what's between it and the ground (a stand, bass drum etc.), the ratio of the two masses interacting with each other vibrationally. These pieces also vibrate and this vibration becomes a third component of the resonating elements that affect a drumheads tone.

A vibrating drum shell and a vibrating drumhead alone do not mix. Shells transfer energy to the drumhead(s) and the more a drum shell vibrates the less efficiently its transfers this energy. A drums fundamental is determined mainly by its internal size. Internal size being equal, the stiffer material will have a more pronounced fundamental through its dynamic range.
 

Artstar

Platinum Member
Gauger demonstrated this potential by striking the drum mounted in a traditional way, and then striking the drum while suspending it in his hand.
Yeah.. he reported what he did.. however I think that many individuals in companies already suspected this.. as this is not some complicated idea IMO.

I took some toms with traditional mounts with the pipe into the mount type.. and pulled the pipe part ALL THE WAY OUT to where JUST THE VERY END was clamped down.. and compared it to same make toms of another kit with RIMS retro-fitted. Almost identical outcome.
 

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
If you remember back in the 80's he (Gauger) marketed the demonstration as 'The RIMS test' in all the rags. Made a difference, everyone tried it with their drums, only the hardware was still bolted to the shell erroneously making tom mount brackets the culprit of dead sounding drums an institutionalizing the theory that anything on the shell robs tone, along with the over blowness' of the theory drum shells need to vibrate/resonate.

Great for the market as it created a need for resonance dampening devises. You now had every companies isolations mounting system so you needed a way to dampen it down, creating room for head dampening devises to flourish.
 

wsabol

Gold Member
Actually SONOR did research in the 80's and determined that a drum shell made concrete would allow the heads to produce the purest tone. .......the stiffer material will have a more pronounced fundamental through its dynamic range.
Think about what the "purity" Sonor was measuring. If the shell does not vibrate, the heads will vibrate in accordance with a the simple model of two uniform membranes closing a perfectly rigid cylinder. This isn't a difficult mechanics problem, and its consequences show what you describe: that a rigid shell will lead to a louder fundamental tone.

What they failed to tell you and what you can't seem to deduce: rigid shells amplify all harmonics. So yes there is a stronger fundamental, but also an equally strong 2nd, 3rd and 4th, etc harmonic. Sonor's "experiment" doesn't really say anything relevant in my opinion.

By the way..... concrete isn't perfectly rigid. Its not even the most rigid thing out there. So Sonor's experiment itself should be taken with a grain of salt.

Gauger did fix a serious problem, and you put it well when you called it "grounding". The goal of the RIMS mounts and other tools like suspension floor tom feet, etc, is to separate the vibrating element - the drum - from the rigid element - the ground/hardware.

Apply that analogy to our vibrating shell debate: to maximize resonance we separate the vibrational element from the rigid element... hmmm.. can we separate the vibrating head from your rigid shell? No.

What if you had really sharp bearing edges?? There's also the tensioning assembly that vibrate with the head and shell.

What if you had perfect gaskets that completely suspend the heads and tensioning assembly from the shell? Those don't exist, and even if it did, in our imperfect world, it wouldn't work the way you'd want it to.

Ok. Lets assume a resonant shell. Heads, hoops, hardware, shell all resonate as one. There is nothing left to separate. Done. Instead of creating a complicated solution to an perfectly avoidable problem, avoid the problem.

If the calculated, wispy sound of two thin sheets of plastic is the sound you're after, go for it. Most people prefer the shell's frequency function to shape and add character the head's response to produce a beautiful resonant sound capable of longer and more powerful tones.
 

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
What they failed to tell you and what you can't seem to deduce: rigid shells amplify all harmonics. So yes there is a stronger fundamental, but also an equally strong 2nd, 3rd and 4th, etc harmonic. Sonor's "experiment" doesn't really say anything relevant in my opinion.



What sets 'any' instrument apart from another is its ability to reproduce harmonics. If all bass guitars, drum sets whatever, just reproduced the fundamental, they'd all sound the same. An instruments ability to produce harmonics is that instruments voice... what sets it apart from another instrument.

Gauger marketed his RIMS mount as an alternative to shell mounted hardware, which was touted as resonance robbing. His experiment proved that its not the hardware that's on the shell, its how the drum interacts with the floor/ground and the steel between the two.

Ok. Lets assume a resonant shell. Heads, hoops, hardware, shell all resonate as one. There is nothing left to separate. Done. Instead of creating a complicated solution to an perfectly avoidable problem, avoid the problem.

Hardware does impede shell vibration, a stand on the floor, or a bass drum, whatever the drum is mounted too becomes part of the drums hardware. If you were strong enough and could hold your stand with the toms mounted and strike it, the toms would resonate like they were on RIMS mounts.
 
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