Bossa foot ostinato w/triplet hands?

Meditative Drumz

Junior Member
What is the best subdivision to be thinking/feeling when playing a samba or bossa foot ostinato while playing subdivisions of triplets w/ the hands (16ths trips, 8ths, quarters)? I am talking about the typical foot ostinato- B.D. on "& 1, & 3" H.H. on "2, 4".

It seems if you are feeling the 8th note more straight subdivision this clashes with the triplets, yet if you are feeling the triplets your foot might swing and want to match the hands. What is the best way to think / feel this? What subdivision should you be counting?

Also, to be more specific I am referring to the Rudiment Ritual in Alan Dawson's book.
 
Last edited:

denisri

Silver Member
Hi
This is a very good question....It's very interesting that nobody has provide comments...
I'll provide my take on this...it may or may not be correct?????
One could take different feels on this!
Option 1 Treat the triplets like this..(one may count 1+2+3+ play bass on the 1 and the + of 3....and play the hands on 1,2,3).
Option 2 Play triplets and swing the foot(bass on 1and L of the triplet1TL)
Does any one agree or disagree?????
Denis
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
A good way to get this is to work on understanding a 4:3 polyrhythm. To better understand this, click HERE and scroll to the part about 4:3 polyrhythm. There is also a sound file attached at the top of the page with an example of a 4:3 polyrhythm.

To understand how 8th note triplets will sound over the samba foot pattern, imagine your BD playing on the 1st and 4th notes of the group of 4, and your HH playing on the 3rd note of the group of 4. Your hands will be playing the groups of 3 over top.
 

Jeff Almeyda

Senior Consultant
Hi
This is a very good question....It's very interesting that nobody has provide comments...
I'll provide my take on this...it may or may not be correct?????
One could take different feels on this!
Option 1 Treat the triplets like this..(one may count 1+2+3+ play bass on the 1 and the + of 3....and play the hands on 1,2,3).
Option 2 Play triplets and swing the foot(bass on 1and L of the triplet1TL)
Does any one agree or disagree?????
Denis
Your option 2 is done all the time by Latin Players. Except it is relaying back and forth from cut time to 6/8.
 

Hercraft

Senior Member
What is the best subdivision to be thinking/feeling when playing a samba or bossa foot ostinato while playing subdivisions of triplets w/ the hands (16ths trips, 8ths, quarters)? I am talking about the typical foot ostinato- B.D. on "& 1, & 3" H.H. on "2, 4".

It seems if you are feeling the 8th note more straight subdivision this clashes with the triplets, yet if you are feeling the triplets your foot might swing and want to match the hands. What is the best way to think / feel this? What subdivision should you be counting?

Also, to be more specific I am referring to the Rudiment Ritual in Alan Dawson's book.
Hi, Im working with a teacher on the ritual, so I can offer you our point of view.
Since your are focusing on the RUDIMENTS, the foot ostinato is just a guide,
In that particular case I would not thinking in a 4:3 polyrithm, because its not
the case... even if you listen to A.D playing the ritual you would notice that he
swings the foot in the triplets rudiments, so, so do we :- )

However, you can first master the ritual with a swing ostinato in the triplets rudiments
and then focusing in the 4:3 poly like something apart.

So, focus first in the rudiments!!!

$0.02
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
Hi, Im working with a teacher on the ritual, so I can offer you our point of view.
Since your are focusing on the RUDIMENTS, the foot ostinato is just a guide,
In that particular case I would not thinking in a 4:3 polyrithm, because its not
the case... even if you listen to A.D playing the ritual you would notice that he
swings the foot in the triplets rudiments, so, so do we :- )

However, you can first master the ritual with a swing ostinato in the triplets rudiments
and then focusing in the 4:3 poly like something apart.

So, focus first in the rudiments!!!

$0.02
I'll have to defer to you on how Dawson played it because the only recording I've heard of him doing so is so muddy that the BD is difficult to make out. However, I've heard a clean, slow recording of Ramsay playing it, and he plays the foot ostinato straight all the way through.

That said, I think we simply need to ask what our goal is. You've suggested that the goal is the rudiments, where my take is that the goal of the ritual could be both control of the rudiments AND the independence to play them over the foot pattern. And with all due respect to Mr. Dawson is the way he played it the only way?

To me, a modern application of the ritual would be to play the rhythms quite strictly and develop the independence to play them in that way. The ability to play 4:3 polyrhythms in various ways (as simply as triplets in a samba) is a big part of playing Afro-Cuban and Brazilian music like the current masters. Fusion players like Weckl and Colaiuta use rhythmic devices of this kind regularly. The tension that triplets create over duple meters (or playing 4's over a triple meter) is an incredible musical tool. I don't think you can go wrong by working on it.

Either way, the value of the ritual, and the choice of practice methods is going to be determined by the goals of the player. For instance, I've read that Stanton Moore has been doing the Ritual, but using a Baion foot pattern as this is more applicable to his goals as a player. Recalling his variations on Ted Reed's Syncopation, if there is anything we can learn from Alan Dawson, it is that there are limitless possibilities for interpretation and application of exercises - i.e. there isn't a definitive way to play them, merely means and ends. We are limited only by our imaginations.

That said, I should go put my 15 minutes in... :)
 

Hercraft

Senior Member
I'll have to defer to you on how Dawson played it because the only recording I've heard of him doing so is so muddy that the BD is difficult to make out. However, I've heard a clean, slow recording of Ramsay playing it, and he plays the foot ostinato straight all the way through.

That said, I think we simply need to ask what our goal is. You've suggested that the goal is the rudiments, where my take is that the goal of the ritual could be both control of the rudiments AND the independence to play them over the foot pattern. And with all due respect to Mr. Dawson is the way he played it the only way?

To me, a modern application of the ritual would be to play the rhythms quite strictly and develop the independence to play them in that way. The ability to play 4:3 polyrhythms in various ways (as simply as triplets in a samba) is a big part of playing Afro-Cuban and Brazilian music like the current masters. Fusion players like Weckl and Colaiuta use rhythmic devices of this kind regularly. The tension that triplets create over duple meters (or playing 4's over a triple meter) is an incredible musical tool. I don't think you can go wrong by working on it.

Either way, the value of the ritual, and the choice of practice methods is going to be determined by the goals of the player. For instance, I've read that Stanton Moore has been doing the Ritual, but using a Baion foot pattern as this is more applicable to his goals as a player. Recalling his variations on Ted Reed's Syncopation, if there is anything we can learn from Alan Dawson, it is that there are limitless possibilities for interpretation and application of exercises - i.e. there isn't a definitive way to play them, merely means and ends. We are limited only by our imaginations.

That said, I should go put my 15 minutes in... :)
You are absolutly right!
Im wrong.
And the fact that "We are limited only by our imaginations" its absolutly right!

I should go to :- )
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
Well, I prefer to think I'm approximately right some of the time depending on circumstances and weather...
 
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