Yea, What's up with that!wow! i've just seen something i've never seen on this forum. two female drummers discussing drumming among themselves. that almost never happens!
I can. I used to live in the Detroit area and I saw/heard the other stuff and heard the talk. But as previously mentioned, she's been cool with other players and has found her place in the world. So who am I to judge or complain?I can't believe how far off the mark that shot is.
I think it takes a great deal of maturity not to blow chops all over the place. Especially on the drumset. And who here has heard Meg on other than record? Who here can speak intelligently about how she plays when she's not on a WS gig?
Larry I know your argument is a sincere one, but may I be so blunt as to ask people to consider the pov that people really do have to develop chops to restrain them, while every bit of that is tied into the musicality issue. Not developing the minimal technique to perform then calling it a musicality issue is just bad playing claiming it's something else at the expense of the real thing. I remember someone on this forum commenting with disdain how Peter Erskine had once said You have to develop chops not to use them.He called Erskine arrogant, while all along I was wondering why no one considered how that guy not at least considering Erskine's words was the actual arrogance at play.But my real sticking point is that you can't be considered a "great" drummer unless you can play 32nd notes at 200 BPM with your forehead.
What about taste, restraint, musicality, and distilling the very soul of a beat into as little notes as possible, then play those distilled notes with fierce conviction? A large percentage of guitarists and drummers, from my observations, feel that any musical space MUST be filled with something. Anyone who is secure enough to let a musical space go unfilled is a more mature player in my mind than someone who just can't resist.?
Miles Davis had serious technique before he decided to no longer appear to use it. All one has to do is listen to his 1949 Paris recordings with Kenny Clarke to hear that the 23 year old Miles could do as convincing a Dizzy Gillespie impersonation as anyone out there. But when he held back in those famous recordings 10 years later, you could hear as much energy in the spaces as when he used to play notes in them. I think part of the magic with Steve Gadd is based on that identical principle. We all know that Gadd has chops. But people can feel that energy and pulse in his simplicity. That only came from a very long time working on technique, because that in of itself is a form of highest magnitude technique. Personally I find it perplexing that few consider how space must retain the same amount of energy to be musical and how the only way that space projects energy is because that same player learned how to create energy in that space from all the years he spent filling it up. I just think it's all related.Wasn't Miles Davis that kind of player? Very musical and restrained? Hearing all the notes but playing only the best ones? Moving beyond the chops onto a higher plane of musicality? It doesn't matter to me if the person can blow chops but chooses not to, or if the person doesn't have chops and leaves space as a function of their not being able to chop it all up. Either way, musical space sounds awesome. It gives the listener a place to contemplate instead of force feeding notes.
As far as the women play different thing, I find it very interesting how all that on this forum falls not so much along gedner lines as generational. Personally if I were to go to a 20 year old female colleague and told her that men approach their musical instruments differently because of gender I would be punched in the mouth and called ridiculous. I have noticed with keen interest how the over 40 year old members here see that so much differently.
The more I have talked about technique and it's purpose with older jazz guys it really does come down to what Erskine propably was trying to say. When you are young you should try to FIRST fill up the whole rythmic space. Play as many notes as possible as perfect as possible. And then for the rest of your life you should try to minimize the notes you play. But most people just refer to Miles Davis and say "he played only one note and it was perfect, we should strive for simplicity". Well Miles had his 'notey' era for sure. Every great player on every instrument has had it (please prove me wrong). So there is a HUGE correlation at least.See this is exactly what I think Erskine was trying to say and what in a more inept way I've tried to say from the moment I joined this forum. Quite often ego has absolutely nothing to do with developing chops, although I am aware that is often one of the places some like to travel on the other end of that discussion.
Good point about drumlines, but may I extend it even further and point out that even if I wanted to, I coulnd't join a drumline here in Finland (as far as I know, we don't have any). So I have had to practice my rudiments all on my own at older age. Where some of the drumline guys (and girls) in the US and even Europe have a really good technical foundation at a very young age.Re; Male vs. Female approaches.
Well guys there are also cultural issues here at play. In the US, 90% of all the schooled drummers prepare for marching band drumline. They engage in this prep the exact same way and are required to exhibit identical technique, approach and physical standards. Let's understand this before we go any farther. I didn't say reasonably identical gender based standard. I said IDENTICAL. Now maybe this is just a US thing based on our own very unique percussion traditions /seeing as how most non Americans have no way to even assume the marching band experience/ but I challenge anyone thinking they can tell the difference between a male and female approach to pick from behind a curtain the male or female player from a drumline. You won't be able to do it. And all of you here from those drumlines know I'm dead on here.
Thank you so much for making a point in spades I've been trying to make for years.The more I have talked about technique and it's purpose with older jazz guys it really does come down to what Erskine propably was trying to say. When you are young you should try to FIRST fill up the whole rythmic space. Play as many notes as possible as perfect as possible. And then for the rest of your life you should try to minimize the notes you play. But most people just refer to Miles Davis and say "he played only one note and it was perfect, we should strive for simplicity". Well Miles had his 'notey' era for sure. Every great player on every instrument has had it (please prove me wrong). So there is a HUGE correlation at least.
To put it simply, if I know exactly where the next 32nd note from the quarter note pulse is, doesn't that make me that much tighter as a player? Isn't simplicity all about microtiming and ability to hear as many subdivisions as possible without actually playing them?
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think everyone has to compete in WFD to be able to have the chops. Some people learn their chops in more 'secret' manner. But have all these guys who have dedicated insane amounts of time to develope their hands and feet to very high standards made a huge mistake? I don't think so, if they just don't leave it at that. If they use it to be creative. And for example Matt has done exactly that.
Larry, I wasn't trying to single you out or anything. I am aware that a whole lot of people see it exactly as you do. I know you're a good guy around here.Matt, your last post quoting me seemed to counter what I had said, yet I agreed with every single thing you said. It's all spot on. After sitting with that all night, I realized that we serve different masters. I play predominantly blues based stuff, and the idea in my world is to distill distill distill, whereas in your world you are way more free to flesh out rhythmically dense ideas where appropriate, 2 opposite approaches from where I'm sitting.
I've always said that with music, there's room for everyone. Our worlds require different diciplines. I have so much respect for the way you play, I envy your position in the echelons of which you are a part of, and really have no clue of the life and times of a true full time pro musician, let alone a jazz musician. We are diametrically opposed musically I think, with our chosen directions. And that is OK. I feel lucky to get to see what's inside your head, because some of the stuff you say is just so deep and far beyond your years. I couldn't touch what you do, and my norm doesn't resonate in your world. We're like trains going in different directions.
This is very interesting. First larryace himself speaks about 'distilling' and now you know this from his past. So we are just saying the same things with different words. I don't think larryace is in different track at all. He just decided it's time to change direction earlier than me and matt.After all Larry, didn't even you have a technical obsession period. when you first came here you were talking about joining WFD. Am I right? I also remember being one of those who supported all that. So it seems like everyone goes through this, and not always for the wrong reasons.