Bad knee on the high-hat side

beatdat

Senior Member
Tore my ACL 25 years ago when I was 23. Never had surgery. Have since worn out my miniscus too. There's a constant ache in my knee, but I wouldn't call it pain... unless I throw it out, then I'm immobilized for a week. Haven't practiced martial arts, played hockey or even played a pick-up game of football in those 25 years. But it has never ever affected my drumming, and drumming hasn't affected it.

You don't mention your weight. Are you carrying extra pounds? That's only going to worsen your joints.

You want low impact while strengthening your muscles and joints? Swim. That's the way to go.

And on the topic of water, KamaK is right about eating fish, but not just on occasion - eat it regularly. I believe you want Omega-3 to help joint pain. Salmon is good.

Address the problem, not the effect.
 

brentcn

Platinum Member
Do you have a source for that info handy? I know someone who's looking at CBD as an alternative to NSAID's. If CBD is basically the same thing, I imagine there would be no compelling reason to switch.

My attitude about all pharmaceuticals is that I'd like to stay away from anything that hasn't been used widely for about 20 years.
Your caution is understandable, if maybe a bit excessive. This is the article I was remembering.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3423254/

As far as ibuprofen and tylenol, IIRC, they both inhibit the Nitrous Oxide pathway, through somewhat different means. That's why it's good to alternate when taking them, so they don't compound their effects too much. It's been a while since biochemistry class!

Much of the issue with cannabinoids is the delivery -- simply ingesting won't get the right things to the right places. Delivery systems are being explored. Topical cannabinoids have some anti-inflammatory properties, but they've only been shown to reduce inflammation on the skin. They have not been show to absorb into a joint and reduce inflammation there. Not yet at least.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3728280/

Agreed. Just not this one in particular.
The biggest, most immediate health issue around cannabis is that regular, habitual users require higher amounts of sedation, when it comes time for a surgical procedure. So the dosage of, say, Morphine or Demerol must be increased, which obviously is dangerous for the patient. The habitual use of cannabis is not risk-free. However, in non-user patients, lower than normal doses of conventional sedatives can be used, in conjunction with cannabinoids, to achieve the same analgesic effect.

There is one major important thing y'all are forgetting. CBD comes from a plant, NSAIDS come from a lab. Any drug made in a lab, be it pharmacutical or bathtub, has the potential to kill you.
If you seriously study toxicology, the first thing you learn is that absolutely everything is toxic -- it's merely a question of dosage. You can over-hydrate yourself with too much water. Breathing pure oxygen can be deadly. Some leaves are poisonous, and some are lettuce. Whether something was made in a lab, or is found in nature, doesn't determine anything.
 

TMe

Senior Member
Your caution is understandable, if maybe a bit excessive. This is the article I was remembering.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3423254/
Thanks for the link, but I'm afraid that's over my head.

I tried a Salonpas patch (actually, a generic equivalent) and that really did the trick. Great stuff for temporary relief, which is all I need. I put one on my knee, and a compression bandage over that, and I didn't even think about my knee while practicing. Smelly, though. My dog is not a fan.
 
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MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Much of the issue with cannabinoids is the delivery -- simply ingesting won't get the right things to the right places. Delivery systems are being explored. Topical cannabinoids have some anti-inflammatory properties, but they've only been shown to reduce inflammation on the skin. They have not been show to absorb into a joint and reduce inflammation there. Not yet at least.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3728280/



The biggest, most immediate health issue around cannabis is that regular, habitual users require higher amounts of sedation, when it comes time for a surgical procedure. So the dosage of, say, Morphine or Demerol must be increased, which obviously is dangerous for the patient. The habitual use of cannabis is not risk-free. However, in non-user patients, lower than normal doses of conventional sedatives can be used, in conjunction with cannabinoids, to achieve the same analgesic effect.



If you seriously study toxicology, the first thing you learn is that absolutely everything is toxic -- it's merely a question of dosage. You can over-hydrate yourself with too much water. Breathing pure oxygen can be deadly. Some leaves are poisonous, and some are lettuce. Whether something was made in a lab, or is found in nature, doesn't determine anything.
Same with cannabis is true for pills also. They don't work anymore and the person needs to take more. This is not just a cannabis issue. How many opioid addicts are there? And how many because they hurt themselves, not because they wanted to be junkies.

Also, I understand that enough of anything is dangerous. But this started as CBD or pills. Pills can kill you!
 

brentcn

Platinum Member
But this started as CBD or pills.
Well...

CBD comes from a plant, NSAIDS come from a lab. Any drug made in a lab, be it pharmacutical or bathtub, has the potential to kill you.
Here, you were trying to make a general statement about synthetic versus plant. And that's what I responded to. Not everything is safe, simply because it's a plant. Even cannabis has risks, although they are not immediately obvious.

This is not just a cannabis issue. How many opioid addicts are there? And how many because they hurt themselves, not because they wanted to be junkies.
In no way did I mention addicts, or the root cause of addiction -- only that regular cannabis use has a risk related to sedatives used during surgery. Yes, opioids have that risk, too, obviously, because surgical sedatives are also opioids.

Let's try to keep the whataboutism and goal-post moving to a minimum.
 
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TMe

Senior Member
Any drug made in a lab, be it pharmacutical or bathtub, has the potential to kill you.
Natural substances can do a pretty good job of killing you as well.

Nature can be deadly, science can save your life, and vice versa. Gotta be careful with both.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Okay, going into nature and eating stuff you know nothing about is stupid. No one is trying to make a Nightshade salad. But pills are purchased everyday, and people OD on them everyday. No one has ever died from too much weed, unless they did something stupid afterwards.

Yeah, maybe I hate pills. But I have also been bedside of loved ones who have OD on them, OTC or not. Ever seen your wife hooked up to machines, catheter, and has charcoal running out her mouth, unconscious in the ER? I have, and its an awful feeling knowing your loved one might die because of something that was prescribed by someone that supposedly has their best interests in mind. If cannabis were legal, it may have been different.
 

brentcn

Platinum Member
Okay, going into nature and eating stuff you know nothing about is stupid. No one is trying to make a Nightshade salad. But pills are purchased everyday, and people OD on them everyday. No one has ever died from too much weed, unless they did something stupid afterwards.

Yeah, maybe I hate pills. But I have also been bedside of loved ones who have OD on them, OTC or not. Ever seen your wife hooked up to machines, catheter, and has charcoal running out her mouth, unconscious in the ER? I have, and its an awful feeling knowing your loved one might die because of something that was prescribed by someone that supposedly has their best interests in mind. If cannabis were legal, it may have been different.
I think I speak for all of us here at DW: we're truly sorry to hear about your situation. It's just awful, and the way opioids have been over-prescribed is shameful. Probably many of us here have similar experiences, or have heard about them. It's literally an epidemic.

Cannabis is currently being studied for its use alongside opioids, in efforts to reduce the dosage of traditional sedatives. Like any drug, synthetic or otherwise, it has its benefits and downsides. And so far, it's not a potent enough painkiller to replace opioids at all.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I think I speak for all of us here at DW: we're truly sorry to hear about your situation. It's just awful, and the way opioids have been over-prescribed is shameful. Probably many of us here have similar experiences, or have heard about them. It's literally an epidemic.

Cannabis is currently being studied for its use alongside opioids, in efforts to reduce the dosage of traditional sedatives. Like any drug, synthetic or otherwise, it has its benefits and downsides. And so far, it's not a potent enough painkiller to replace opioids at all.
I agree it is not a replacement. I personally don't think there is replacement. My wife said CBD helps her. I have to believe her, no more pain meds.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Playing hi hat heel down is absolutely possible. I do it most of the time now. It all but eliminates any impact on your knee.

Is it possible the way you played before....that your ankle was locked tight instead of sharing the shock with your knee? When I play heel up hi hat....it's a lot of toes and no real force being absorbed by the knee,because my toes are always connected to the footboard. I guess it's safe to say that your foot shouldn't leave the footboard when playing hi hat. (open for debate)

Observe, or better yet have someone else observe, exactly what you are doing with your hi hat leg while you play normally. Especially your knee, thigh and ankle joints. You could be causing it.
 

TMe

Senior Member
Playing hi hat heel down is absolutely possible.
I have a habit of tapping my heel to keep time, and for Ska songs I rock my foot back and with a snapping motion that smacks my heel down. I think that's part of the problem. Now if I try to play mostly heel-up, I'm smacking my heel less and that seems to help. It will take some getting used to.
 
I don't know if any of these ideas will help you with your problem or if you've tried all of this already but I'll give it a shot:



- Try experimenting with the position of the Hi Hat stand itself. I like it when the foot plate of the bass and hi hat pedals are at more or less the same distance from my seat. My Hi Hat used to be a bit closer to me and it made it harder to reach over to the Floor Tom and Ride because my whole body was more orientated towards the left. Now, there's less tension in my feet and upper body, so maybe you can facilitate some movements as well. A new position may cause you to play the Hi Hat on a different section of the top cybmal and adjust your hand and arm position a bit, so this may require a bit of time to feel comfortable.
- You mentioned that your left foot is mostly busy and helps you to keep time. Maybe you can cut some of that back by doing some timing exercises (loud counting, click not only on the downbeat but different partials,... ). For example, I learned the rocking motion to close the Hats on 2 and 4 but as tempos got faster, I realized that I'm relying too much on that movement to keep time and that it caused some fatigue in the leef foot. Focusing on the time and subdivisions before playing made my playing more calm in general, I believe.
 

TMe

Senior Member
I guess it's safe to say that your foot shouldn't leave the footboard when playing hi hat. (open for debate)
I learned the rocking motion to close the Hats on 2 and 4 but as tempos got faster, I realized that I'm relying too much on that movement to keep time and that it caused some fatigue in the leef foot.
Thanks for the advice. I've been using a rocking motion with my left foot the whole time I've been playing drums and I never realized how much I was stressing my left leg. I've been practicing without the rocking motion for a few weeks and not only does my knee feel a lot better, but my high-hat work seems to be improving.

Once I started focusing on my high-hat foot, I realized I was using a bit of a rocking motion with my kick drum foot as well. Now that I've stopped doing that, I'm getting cleaner strikes on the kick drum. Bonus.
 
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