B8 pros

yammyfan

Senior Member
I have several Pro and B8 Pro cymbals, and I love them! They're a cut-above the B8 line. I suspect they're all made the same, but some are better than others and get the Pro designation. Cymbal companies often make cymbals, and then decide exactly where they fit (there are some obvious exceptions of course.)

Sound-wise it doesn't seem unusual for a Pro could sound like an A-Custom. However, I wouldn't rely on the Pro to take a beating.
I have a B8 Pro China in the basement somewhere that I haven't touched in 25 years. I should dust it off and see how it sounds. :unsure:
 

Woolwich

Silver Member
As usual a topic about the composition of bronze has gone in the same misdirection.
Not the OP's fault at all but the issue started when he said he used B8 Pros instead of saying "Sabian B8 Pros". At that point a discussion about the merits of B8 vs B20 ensued as opposed to a discussion about the merits of the specific line of cymbals the OP uses, Sabian B8 Pro cymbals.
And the direction the discussion went in re: Paiste providing sub standard products and "gouging" customers is rubbish. They'll sell you a B8 product at any price point. They'll even sell you a brass "cymbal shaped object" for buttons. When you get to 2002/Rude/Signature price territory you're paying more not because they're gouging, but because of the extra work and hours that go into making them. It's like saying that because both cars are made from steel and plastic, Ford are gouging their customers because their models costs more than the comparable Dacia ones. The material cymbals are made from helps to direct the sound they make and as individuals we may prefer a brightness or darkness different to each other and that's excellent because it gives us choices and options. But any cymbal made to the same standards as another, be it at the entry, mid or pro levels, gets the majority of it's characteristics from the method of manufacture and the time put into it.
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
Ah, that's an excellent question, and I do have a related theory, though I cannot substantiate it with hard-and-fast data, and I'll say nothing about Sabian, as I have little direct experience with their products. Nevertheless, here's the gist: Paiste has been making non-B20 sheet cymbals and promoting them as professional grade for a very long time, so Paiste disciples have no opposition to such composition or mode of production. Paiste, therefore, can charge top dollar for non-B20 offerings, and its adherents won't blink an eye. The Zildjian consumer, on the contrary, clings largely to the delusion that non-cast, non-B20 cymbals are categorically substandard. Hence, it's improbable that long-time players of As and Ks will convert to Ss (B12), and it's equally unlikely that Paiste lovers will flock to Zildjian. What's Zildjian's response? Lower the price range of non-B20 offerings, and newcomers -- those devoted to no manufacturer -- will swarm the stock like flies. It's a rather brilliant scheme that I trust is paying dividends for Zildjian.

Let us examine, in cursory fashion, why Ks, for instance, cost more than Ss. It's not that Ks are materially elite. It's that's the process through which they're crafted is extremely labor intensive. Casting cymbals individually is enormously time consuming. The monetary burdens of doing so are thus passed on to the customer. Zildjian could be charging a whole lot more for Ss too, but it doesn't have to, as it can profit from the line at its current price point. Again, I'm not a Zildjian official, and my views are merely speculative, but I do believe the interpretation makes sense when placed beneath the lenses of logic.

Of course, some non-B20 cymbals can be of very low quality, but B20 cymbals can be too. The alloy doesn't make or break the cymbal. Lots of other factors contribute to the overall result.

My cymbal philosophy is grounded in the repudiation of the supposition that one alloy is better than another. Rather, each alloy delivers a different character. It's all a matter of taste. If you love Zildjian Ks, you probably won't be enamored of Ss or the other way around. So be it. Play what you like and let the world keep spinning. Our spectrum of sound would be rather bland if we all championed the same family of cymbals.
I'm thoroughly intrigued now to find out how cast cymbals are made. Just how much casting as opposed to beating/spinning is involved?
I saw a Zildjian salesmen claim they're made from a billet of bronze, so I'm thoroughly confused.
It just seems counterintuitive that something so thin as a cymbal can be, literally, 'cast'.
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
What you get there is a one-of-a-kind cymbal that's impossible to replace, which some players really love. What you get from most Paiste products, as well as from my Zildjian S Family, is a more uniform cymbal you can replace with ease. Everybody has a different objective.
Haha!
Just seen your Bosphorus vid!
Answered all my questions - and I was right, They're more beaten than cast.
 

EhhSoCheap

Member
And the direction the discussion went in re: Paiste providing sub standard products and "gouging" customers is rubbish. They'll sell you a B8 product at any price point. They'll even sell you a brass "cymbal shaped object" for buttons. When you get to 2002/Rude/Signature price territory you're paying more not because they're gouging, but because of the extra work and hours that go into making them.
I didn’t mean to imply Paiste is substandard or that their prices for their top level cymbals is unfair, I thought I was being obviously hyperbolic.

The discussion pattern is that someone correctly points out the low quality of a Zildjian/Sabian B8 line, Paiste is inevitably roped in as proof positive that B8 is no worse than BXX, “play what you like” etc etc. I’m with the consensus of this thread which is that it’s what you do to the alloy rather than the specific alloy used.
 

iCe

Senior Member
I'm gonna go with if you like them, keep them. Years back i played a kit that had my old Paiste 302 20" ride on it (sold it and then was used by a drummer who took it to a jam session) with other cymbals, and it sounded great! What i'm saying is that a price tag doesn't define what sounds pleasing to your ears ;)
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I'm thoroughly intrigued now to find out how cast cymbals are made. Just how much casting as opposed to beating/spinning is involved?
I saw a Zildjian salesmen claim they're made from a billet of bronze, so I'm thoroughly confused.
It just seems counterintuitive that something so thin as a cymbal can be, literally, 'cast'.
There is a difference in the B8 and B20 alloys in that a B20 alloy can not be premade into a roll then stamped into cymbals, whereas B8 can. I'm not a metallurgist so I cant tell you why, but I did read it somewhere. The B20 has to be poured, the B8 can be made from pre stamped discs.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Paiste Cymbals come from Switzerland. Swiss Francs are a strong currency (compared to the dollar). Also the salaries for high quality swiss manufactoring are much higher as elsewhere.
And those Swiss financial factors are inevitably passed on to consumers around the globe. Vital economic point from a true insider. :)
 

NouveauCliche

Senior Member
This thread leads me to another thought...
Has there ever been a good, brass (!) cymbal? 😲
Based on my 10 second google research and expertise:

Examples of brass cymbals include: Harpy B, Meinl Marathon M38, Meinl Meteor, Meinl HCS, Orion Twister, Paiste 101, Paiste 302 and some Exotic Percussion, Pearl, Royal, Twister Series by Orion, Solar and Sbr by Sabian, Soultone Intro, UFIP M8, Planet Z by Zildjian.

So..no...not really anything outstanding haha.
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
Based on my 10 second google research and expertise:

Examples of brass cymbals include: Harpy B, Meinl Marathon M38, Meinl Meteor, Meinl HCS, Orion Twister, Paiste 101, Paiste 302 and some Exotic Percussion, Pearl, Royal, Twister Series by Orion, Solar and Sbr by Sabian, Soultone Intro, UFIP M8, Planet Z by Zildjian.

So..no...not really anything outstanding haha.
I am a Paiste 101 survivor myself.
It's an 18" ride. With a sizzler on, it sounds ok to me. But I do have very little idea what a good ride cymbal should sound like!
 
D

Deleted member 525878

Guest
It's my understanding that Paiste still employs an outside supplier for all their metals; discs made to their specifications.
Is the same true for Zildjian S cymbals? Sabian B8s?
 

CommanderRoss

Silver Member
If you like your B8s, play them and make no apologies. Play what appeals to you, and dismiss the conditioned masses who bow before the B20 alter. It's your setup and your sound. Enact your own standards in all things drumming. No one is as invested in your gear as you are.
This!!

I have a poster on the studio wall that shows a cross section of the human ear. The tag line says, "Your ear is the only endorsee that matters".
I've lived by this mantra my whole drumming "career" and it's done well for me.
 

CommanderRoss

Silver Member
It's my understanding that Paiste still employs an outside supplier for all their metals; discs made to their specifications.
Is the same true for Zildjian S cymbals? Sabian B8s?
That's my usual question too. Is it true that all B8 cymbals are stamped from a sheet bought in bulk from a supplier over the B20 that's made in house?Or are there companies that make B8 cymbals from a cast puck like the B20's are?
 
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