B8 pros

larz882003

New member
Ok here is the deal I know these are trash cymbals no doubt but here is my question and story.

Do cymbals sound better with age?

I have a set of B8 pros for personal practice I have had them to basically beat on since I dont know 2007 or 2008
I have or better yet had a very nice set of vintage avedis that I lent to a friend that was going into the studio.
this was my set of studio and gig cymbals. He was in the studio for two weeks and called me telling me they were gone, no amount of money can replace the sound I had with those.
So its time for me to go back into the studio to record our third album and I needed new cymbals, the last time I have played my avedis was last nov.
So I am in the market for new equipment and my friend who owns a music store let me take home and try out a set of Paiste signatures, a set of A;s a set of A customs and a set of sabian AA. He told me the sabian aa was as close to as I was going to get to the avedis.
The funny thing was and I am not joking, is the B8 pro that I bashed the crap out of for 12 years let em tarnish never really cleaned them too much sounded almost as good as the A custom line.
The best line I liked was the signatures but I dont think I am ready to put 4 grand into the set up I need and the AA or the A customs are half the cost.......How in Gods earth do old b8 pros sound almost as good as new top of the line cymbals I know its b8 alloy not to much different that 2002 line from paiste. Is it that I have grown accustom to them since I haven't played my avedis in 9 months or just bashing the hell out of them got rid of that overly bright tone that they had?
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
The funny thing was and I am not joking, is the B8 pro that I bashed the crap out of for 12 years let em tarnish never really cleaned them too much sounded almost as good as the A custom line.
If you like your B8s, play them and make no apologies. A B20 cymbal isn't superior by virtue of its alloy. Anyone who claims otherwise is either misinformed or enslaved by marketing. B8, B12, and B15 are generally brighter than B20. That doesn't make B20 better. Play what appeals to you, and dismiss the conditioned masses who bow before the B20 alter. It's your setup and your sound. Enact your own standards in all things drumming. No one is as invested in your gear as you are.
 
I have or better yet had a very nice set of vintage avedis that I lent to a friend that was going into the studio.
this was my set of studio and gig cymbals. He was in the studio for two weeks and called me telling me they were gone
I'm having a hard time getting past this bit and I'm just some guy reading about it. I can't imagine how upsetting that must have been for you.

I realize those exact cymbals were irreplaceable—although what does "gone" mean in this context? Stolen? Missing? Destroyed?—but he did compensate you financially, yes?
 

NouveauCliche

Senior Member
Ok here is the deal I know these are trash cymbals no doubt but here is my question and story.

Do cymbals sound better with age?
Is it that I have grown accustom to them since I haven't played my avedis in 9 months or just bashing the hell out of them got rid of that overly bright tone that they had?
1. Cymbals can certainly change tone with age and use.
2. I'd be willing to bet anything that you've just grown used to how they sound - I'd put money on you being really surprised at how different another set of cymbals would be next to your current one.

I was playing on this practice set for a while with my because I didn't want to haul my kit over and I got used to the sound of this budget set (like super budget, DeRosa) with the band....I even have a post on my IG saying something like "I love this kit - don't be a gear head" etc. etc.

However - the first time I moved my new kit in for more serious practice as we are getting ready to record our next album - the feel and sound WAS INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT. totally inspirational.

I think we can all get used to simply playing on what have - but there are quality differences that result in sounds that are just simply better with nicer gear.


This is something that people can argue all day long - but especially now that I've been producing our concert series - we've done about 10 bands now...and the difference in quality gear is immediate. It's so much work on the back end trying to get a good sound out of garbage mics and amps and kits with junk heads.
 

EhhSoCheap

Member
If you like your B8s, play them and make no apologies. A B20 cymbal isn't superior by virtue of its alloy. Anyone who claims otherwise is either misinformed or enslaved by marketing. B8, B12, and B15 are generally brighter than B20. That doesn't make B20 better. Play what appeals to you, and dismiss the conditioned masses who bow before the B20 alter.
Why are Zildjian and Sabian B8 cymbals so much cheaper than Paiste?
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Why are Zildjian and Sabian B8 cymbals so much cheaper than Paiste?
Ah, that's an excellent question, and I do have a related theory, though I cannot substantiate it with hard-and-fast data, and I'll say nothing about Sabian, as I have little direct experience with their products. Nevertheless, here's the gist: Paiste has been making non-B20 sheet cymbals and promoting them as professional grade for a very long time, so Paiste disciples have no opposition to such composition or mode of production. Paiste, therefore, can charge top dollar for non-B20 offerings, and its adherents won't blink an eye. The Zildjian consumer, on the contrary, clings largely to the delusion that non-cast, non-B20 cymbals are categorically substandard. Hence, it's improbable that long-time players of As and Ks will convert to Ss (B12), and it's equally unlikely that Paiste lovers will flock to Zildjian. What's Zildjian's response? Lower the price range of non-B20 offerings, and newcomers -- those devoted to no manufacturer -- will swarm the stock like flies. It's a rather brilliant scheme that I trust is paying dividends for Zildjian.

Let us examine, in cursory fashion, why Ks, for instance, cost more than Ss. It's not that Ks are materially elite. It's that's the process through which they're crafted is extremely labor intensive. Casting cymbals individually is enormously time consuming. The monetary burdens of doing so are thus passed on to the customer. Zildjian could be charging a whole lot more for Ss too, but it doesn't have to, as it can profit from the line at its current price point. Again, I'm not a Zildjian official, and my views are merely speculative, but I do believe the interpretation makes sense when placed beneath the lenses of logic.

Of course, some non-B20 cymbals can be of very low quality, but B20 cymbals can be too. The alloy doesn't make or break the cymbal. Lots of other factors contribute to the overall result.

My cymbal philosophy is grounded in the repudiation of the supposition that one alloy is better than another. Rather, each alloy delivers a different character. It's all a matter of taste. If you love Zildjian Ks, you probably won't be enamored of Ss or the other way around. So be it. Play what you like and let the world keep spinning. Our spectrum of sound would be rather bland if we all championed the same family of cymbals.
 
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EhhSoCheap

Member
Paiste has been making non-B20 sheet cymbals and promoting them as professional grade for a very long time, so Paiste disciples have no opposition to such composition or mode of production. Paiste, therefore, can charge top dollar for non-B20 offerings, and its adherents won't blink an eye. The Zildjian consumer, on the contrary, clings largely to the delusion that non-cast, non-B20 cymbals are categorically substandard. Hence, it's improbable that long-time players of As and Ks will convert to Ss (B12), and it's equally unlikely that Paiste lovers will flock to Zildjian. What's Zildjian's response? Lower the price range of non-B20 offerings, and newcomers -- those devoted to no manufacturer -- will swarm the stock like flies. It's a rather brilliant scheme that I trust is paying dividends for Zildjian.

Let us examine, in cursory fashion, why Ks, for instance, cost more than Ss,. It's not that Ks are materially elite. It's that's the process through which they're crafted is extremely labor intensive. Casting cymbals individually is enormously time consuming. The monetary burdens of doing so are thus passed on to the customer. Zildjian could be charging a whole lot more for Ss too, but it doesn't have to, as it can profit from the line at its current price point. Again, I'm not a Zildjian official, and my views are merely speculative, but I do believe the interpretation makes sense when placed beneath the lenses of logic.
Interesting. Seems like in this scenario, Paiste are the brilliant schemers, gouging consumers for B8 cymbals when other companies offer the same quality B8s at a fraction of the cost.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Interesting. Seems like in this scenario, Paiste are the brilliant schemers, gouging consumers for B8 cymbals when other companies offer the same quality B8s at a fraction of the cost.
Ha! I don't know that I'd go that far. I think it's more accurate to state that Paiste and Zildjian, for example, subscribe to divergent formulas. To the best of my knowledge, Paiste doesn't even use the term B8. Instead, they call it "2002 alloy." They're pretty tight-lipped about a lot of their alloy recipes, as well as their exact production processes. What I'm getting at is that Paiste and Zildjian have dramatically different definitions of what constitutes a "professional" cymbal. I ignore the semantics and use my ears. Some B20s sound much better to me than B8s, B12s, or B15s, and just the opposite is true in other cases. It all depends on the cymbals in question.
 

NouveauCliche

Senior Member
Interesting. Seems like in this scenario, Paiste are the brilliant schemers, gouging consumers for B8 cymbals when other companies offer the same quality B8s at a fraction of the cost.
It's no mystery:

The biggest difference in price between Paiste's offerings vs. the Sabian low end is the manufacturing process:

2002's are cast individually and to a very strict quality control in addition to the tempering, hammering and lathing that each cymbal takes. By contrast the Sabians are cut from a sheet of B8 bronze and pressed into the shape of a cymbal before lathing like a lot of budget cymbals.

You could take the alloy that K's Cons are made of - put in a sheet and stamp out cymbals and get cymbals that are dramatically less expensive than K Cons that are cast and hammered, etc. and will sound worse.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
It's no mystery:

The biggest difference in price between Paiste's offerings vs. the Sabian low end is the manufacturing process:

2002's are cast individually and to a very strict quality control in addition to the tempering, hammering and lathing that each cymbal takes. By contrast the Sabians are cut from a sheet of B8 bronze and pressed into the shape of a cymbal before lathing like a lot of budget cymbals.

You could take the alloy that K's Cons are made of - put in a sheet and stamp out cymbals and get cymbals that are dramatically less expensive than K Cons that are cast and hammered, etc. and will sound worse.
According to this article, which draws a pretty good distinction between cast and sheet cymbals, Paiste 2002s are stamped from B8 sheets rather than cast individually. (See the final sentence of the second paragraph.)

 

NouveauCliche

Senior Member
According to this article, which draws a pretty good distinction between cast and sheet cymbals, Paiste 2002s are stamped from B8 sheets rather than cast individually. (See the final sentence of the second paragraph.)

Roger that.

Regardless - from the Paiste website description:

Using Paiste's CuSn8 alloy, also known as "2002 Bronze", it is a Professional Level cymbal. Hand Hammered and Hand Lathed, and created by employing proprietary manufacturing methods, it is one of the most versatile cymbal series on the market for over 30 years.

So the pricing must come from the Hand Hammering and Hand Lathing and not the casting!

Getting to the bottom of this slowly!
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Roger that.

Regardless - from the Paiste website description:

Using Paiste's CuSn8 alloy, also known as "2002 Bronze", it is a Professional Level cymbal. Hand Hammered and Hand Lathed, and created by employing proprietary manufacturing methods, it is one of the most versatile cymbal series on the market for over 30 years.

So the pricing must come from the Hand Hammering and Hand Lathing and not the casting!

Getting to the bottom of this slowly!
No worries, man. A whole lot of non-Paiste players presume that Paiste's cymbals are cast individually. Almost all, however, are stamped from sheets, and most are less than B20. Hammering and lathing is what counts. The same is true of my Zildjian Ss, which are B12. Zildjian makes them the same way Paiste produces most of its upper-end lines. They start as sheets but are fully hammered and lathed. If they had Paiste logos, they'd be a whole lot more expensive, but I think Zildjian drops the price on that series a bit to compete with Paiste. If so, that strategy seems to be working.

But yeah, some non-B20 cymbals are awful, just as some B20s aren't so great. Hammering and lathing are monumental influences.
 

yammyfan

Senior Member
Make no mistake, Paiste 2002's sound a thousand times better than budget B8 cymbals.

Heck, they sound substantially better than Paiste's own budget cymbals.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Make no mistake, Paiste 2002's sound a thousand times better than budget B8 cymbals.

Heck, they sound substantially better than Paiste's own budget cymbals.
No doubt there, which supports the idea that factors other than alloy determine a cymbal's quality. It's for that reason I'm not anti-B8, anti-B12, or anti-B15. It all depends on a lot of other factors that go into the crafting of a cymbal. The evil isn't in the alloy; it's in inadequate production methods.
 

NouveauCliche

Senior Member
No worries, man. A whole lot of non-Paiste players presume that Paiste's cymbals are cast individually. Almost all, however, are stamped from sheets, and most are less than B20. Hammering and lathing is what counts. The same is true of my Zildjian Ss, which are B12. Zildjian makes them the same way Paiste produces most of its upper-end lines. They start as sheets but are fully hammered and lathed. If they had Paiste logos, they'd be a whole lot more expensive, but I think Zildjian drops the price on that series a bit to compete with Paiste. If so, that strategy seems to be working.

But yeah, some non-B20 cymbals are awful, just as some B20s aren't so great. Hammering and lathing are monumental influences.
You know what's funny - I've been a Bosphorus endorser for years now - since it was cool and they had Stanton Moore and Jeff Hamilton haha - and I have NO idea what the compound is that my cymbals are made of.

All I know is the manufacturing process - if you even want to call it that. Literally handmade and signed by the person that made it:


Now I'm curious what the metal actually is!
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
I love the numbers game with cymbals. If we didnt know the alloys would we care?

I have B8, B20, and Nickle Silver cymbals on my kit. They all sound wonderful together, and if you closed your eyes you wouldnt know which is which.
True as well. Knowledge creates bias. The blind ear is more prone to impartiality.

At the same time, if you want a darker sound, B20 is usually a better bet. But I like a brighter cymbal with more articulation than wash, which is why I favor Zildjian Ss over Ks and so on. There's no right or wrong there. Play what you like.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
You know what's funny - I've been a Bosphorus endorser for years now - since it was cool and they had Stanton Moore and Jeff Hamilton haha - and I have NO idea what the compound is that my cymbals are made of.

All I know is the manufacturing process - if you even want to call it that. Literally handmade and signed by the person that made it:


Now I'm curious what the metal actually is!
What you get there is a one-of-a-kind cymbal that's impossible to replace, which some players really love. What you get from most Paiste products, as well as from my Zildjian S Family, is a more uniform cymbal you can replace with ease. Everybody has a different objective.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
I have several Pro and B8 Pro cymbals, and I love them! They're a cut-above the B8 line. I suspect they're all made the same, but some are better than others and get the Pro designation. Cymbal companies often make cymbals, and then decide exactly where they fit (there are some obvious exceptions of course.)

Sound-wise it doesn't seem unusual for a Pro could sound like an A-Custom. However, I wouldn't rely on the Pro to take a beating.
 
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