B20 or bust

Woolwich

Silver Member
Okay, apologies in advance but here comes an incoming rant that harks back to the original question.
And the answer is IGNORANCE.
Whether it's cymbals, drums or anything else the answer is, it's down to people expressing ignorant opinions with so much confidence that people who don't know any better or who are on the fence then repeat this confidently expressed opinion as "fact" and then it subsequently takes on a life of its own.
Just tonight I saw online someone stating "as fact" that all pubs in England are only allowing people in if they book a table in advance due to Covid 19. Now if I hadn't been out for a drink recently I might be of a mind to repeat this "fact" if someone asked about the state of public houses in the UK, thus compounding a lie. Fortunately I have been out and the "fact" is that this is absolute balderdash.
In the same way B whatever isn't better than B something else, nor is maple better than birch, mahogany or whatever else.
A word to the wise. If someone is making a sweeping statement of "fact", check out their previous online posts and their general provenance before blindly repeating what they say as gospel.
 

Griffin

Well-known member
I'd argue they're finally catching up. Zildjian, imo, were always behind the others in the beginner lines. Sabian was moderately better, but Paiste really killed their beginner lines for the past 15 years or so.
Yeah I feel like Paiste really cracked the idea of budget cymbals that sound good early. A lot of other offerings were more of a ‘here’s something to hit until you buy a real cymbal’ type idea. I’m assuming this heavily contributes to alloy snobbery.
 

J-W

Well-known member
Okay, apologies in advance but here comes an incoming rant that harks back to the original question.
And the answer is IGNORANCE.
Whether it's cymbals, drums or anything else the answer is, it's down to people expressing ignorant opinions with so much confidence that people who don't know any better or who are on the fence then repeat this confidently expressed opinion as "fact" and then it subsequently takes on a life of its own.
Just tonight I saw online someone stating "as fact" that all pubs in England are only allowing people in if they book a table in advance due to Covid 19. Now if I hadn't been out for a drink recently I might be of a mind to repeat this "fact" if someone asked about the state of public houses in the UK, thus compounding a lie. Fortunately I have been out and the "fact" is that this is absolute balderdash.
In the same way B whatever isn't better than B something else, nor is maple better than birch, mahogany or whatever else.
A word to the wise. If someone is making a sweeping statement of "fact", check out their previous online posts and their general provenance before blindly repeating what they say as gospel.
This is exactly why social media can be so detrimental to society. Entire movements based on false or exaggerated information have led to one tragic incident after another.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
The whole premise here is kind of hilarious-- looking for a religious war that doesn't really exist, over the tin content of cymbals. I imagine maybe there are some cymbal smiths who are dogmatic about it.

In general if someone advises someone to buy one kind of product or another, it's because in fact things are different, and may be good for different things. It's not a personal attack on people who believe otherwise.
 

Seafroggys

Silver Member
Going back to topic, I do like both. My 2002 is my favorite rock crash that I own, and as we all know, its B8. But, one thing I will knock in B20's favor is that I find they are more durable. I don't break cymbals, I have an Amedia paper-thin crash on my rock setup that's going on 13 years strong. Yet I'm on my third 2002 crash. And I play my cymbals fairly evenly if I'm being honest.

Heck, I got my 900 Red Colorsounds that I pair with my acrylic set, and even though I can tell that the sound is not quite "there" compared to all of my other cymbals (900 is an intermediate line after all) they still sound pretty damn good, especially to the audience perspective, and I only use them live anyway. So both are perfectly fine.

You know what it is? I blame Sabian for this. Since they named their beginner line.....well....B8. And we all know how they sound (although I still think they sound better than Zildjian's beginner offerings), so I think just by that name association it got a bad rap.
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
Going back to topic, I do like both. My 2002 is my favorite rock crash that I own, and as we all know, its B8. But, one thing I will knock in B20's favor is that I find they are more durable. I don't break cymbals, I have an Amedia paper-thin crash on my rock setup that's going on 13 years strong. Yet I'm on my third 2002 crash. And I play my cymbals fairly evenly if I'm being honest.
I don't think it's just you. I've had quite a few friends with similar issues with Paiste. I've always wondered if the amount of hammering and lathing that Paiste employs to bring out the "Paiste sound" in their non-B20 cymbals leaves them more susceptible to breakage?

You know what it is? I blame Sabian for this. Since they named their beginner line.....well....B8. And we all know how they sound (although I still think they sound better than Zildjian's beginner offerings), so I think just by that name association it got a bad rap.
I agree completely. The proliferation of budget cymbals with "B8" printed right on them must have started the "alloy wars."
 
looking for a religious war that doesn't really exist, over the tin content of cymbals
I also don't think that it's truly a "war". There are just a few recurring questions on this forum - someone looks for decent cymbals without knowing a whole lot and "B20" is often a good rule of thumb to steer people in the right direction / away from the lowest level cymbals. There's just a higher percentage of "bad" cymbals that are made of B8 but some B8 cymbals may be a good choice for different things. Some may truly think that anything but B20 is bad for all situations or they don't know about 2002's alloy but I think it's mostly a quick answer because nobody feels like writing a full page of information that covers the whole spectrum.
May I promote my idea to have some Wiki-like stickies again? This could make it easier to give people the big picture of some topics without having to rewrite everything for every recurring question. https://drummerworld.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-about-best-threads-stickies-as-faqs.168158/
 
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Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
What our alloy discussions convince me of is this: I like Paiste cymbals with Zildjian logos. The S is the closest I can get.
Zildjian did make a line of cymbals made out of the B15 "Paiste Signature" alloy a few years back. Project 391 or something.

Sound-wise, they were miles apart from the Signature line (or Signature Precision or Sound Formula) so it adds further fuel to the fire of the notion that it really isn't the alloy, but what you do with it that truly makes a cymbal. For whatever reason Zildjian and Sabian's skills really seem completely focused on making B20 cymbals, and those techniques just don't seem to translate to other alloys for some reason.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I started picking cymbals by ear and what was local - back in the ole days. Still the same - I think it’s a personal thing. B20, B15, B8, Nickle/Silver whatever alchemy goes into it- it’s the sound we like we are chasing. And of course there will be a huge diversity in what people like. Like I’m not a heavy thick cymbal fan on whole but there are exceptions.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Zildjian did make a line of cymbals made out of the B15 "Paiste Signature" alloy a few years back. Project 391 or something.

Sound-wise, they were miles apart from the Signature line (or Signature Precision or Sound Formula) so it adds further fuel to the fire of the notion that it really isn't the alloy, but what you do with it that truly makes a cymbal. For whatever reason Zildjian and Sabian's skills really seem completely focused on making B20 cymbals, and those techniques just don't seem to translate to other alloys for some reason.
I hear you, man I've had entire sets of Paiste 2002s and Signatures. I actually like Zildjian S's more than Paiste 2002s, but Paiste Signatures are VERY hard to beat. Zildjian either hasn't cracked that code yet or doesn't want to fully invest itself in the pursuit of doing so. We'll see what Zildjian's future efforts produce.

In the meantime, I'm enjoying S's quite a bit. Every now and then, I try to find something I dislike about them, but I never really uncover anything that inspires me to kick them to the curb.. My Mastersound hi-hats are excellent, and my Thin Crashes are bright without being obtrusive. There's an underlying mellowness about them that's been quite surprising. The bell of my Medium Ride is nice, and the bow is acceptable, though I wouldn't say it's my favorite ride ever. It sustains a bit too long for my taste.

I usually play a set of cymbals for three to five years, sell them, and replace them with a brand-new set. I'm in my second year with S's. Should I desire a change, A Customs are the most probable destination for me. I'd like to stick with Zildjian, and A Customs have that glassy sound I like so much. Their hammering, lathing, and finish also make them similar to S's.
 
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