Are Jazz Drummers Overrated?

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con struct

Platinum Member
"Alan" still hasn't logged back which is giving weight to the troll conspiracy theory.

I'm with Tommy - it's gotta be Matt!

1) He came on very early to warn us away yet he's not a regular poster these days. Hmmm. He'd be well aware that saying "Don't post here!" is a gilt-edge invitation to post :) ... eg. "Darling don't touch it, it's precious"

2) He pointed to Jay to throw us off the trail. The ex con is always the obvious suspect. Yet he talks in detail about the perpetrator's modus operandi, "Then he came back again several times under his usual identity and none of the hardcores took the bait, seeing as how his routine has become so old and predictable". No one else knew this. Double hmmm.

3) Matt said the troll didn't do a good job. It's an expression of disappointment. The riot didn't eventuate. Matt's a perfectionist so this would have hurt.

# Conspiracy theory #3 :)
Interesting theory Polly, but I don't think it's Matt.

For the record I'll state here and now that I'm really tired of Matt throwing accusations at me, but I'm grown and I can take it and when it comes right down to it I don't care. I really don't understand what his problem with me is but it's his problem and not mine.

No, I still think it was some kid who started this thing. And I don't think what he said was all that outrageous, although I have to admit that when I first read what he said I was, well, pretty outraged. But then I thought about it. Why should this metal drummer-worshiping kid see anything in Max Roach's playing that would impress him?

So I'm going to assume that he was in earnest and got scared away by the responses.
 

Ethan01

Senior Member
Bleh, didn't read many replies so i'm sorry if this was repeated. But... If you're not listening to the music for the ENJOYMENT of it, then you failed before you started.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I agree, Jay - but with the circumstantial evidence lining up against Matt so neatly, if this was a police investigation he'd be the first one down the station being questioned lol

Hey Bob, Apollo 11 didn't really land on the moon in 1969 - it was a Hollywood studio! :)

Haha Wy, you can take the boy out of Drummerworld but you can't take Drummerworld out of the boy ;-) As per yesterday's conversation, I'm with you - we tub thumpers are all in this together, even if we sometimes pretend we aren't.
 

caddywumpus

Platinum Member
I think it's Jay, personally. I mean, he's used two different OTHER accounts so far in this thread!

...okay, I'm TOTALLY kidding. It could be a newbie that got scared off by the forum members' reactions. It could be somebody who's posting on the thread, looking to start something. Whoever it is, and as "annoying" as the whole thing is, it IS a spark that has ignited and brought the whole Drummerworld community together again. For that, I'm grateful...

...and for the love of Gadd, if you want the thread to die, stop posting!
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
Nice detective work, Polly! I'd like to believe it, not because I have it out for Matt (although I read the same potshots Jay did), but just because I like things tidy like that.

I was recently embroiled in a Max Roach debate (that thread started very similar to this one 6 months ago), so I'm kind of surprised nobody's tried to pin it on me yet.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
It could be a newbie that got scared off by the forum members' reactions.

...and for the love of Gadd, if you want the thread to die, stop posting!
I was thinking this but he hasn't logged back in yet. Having said that, before you get in the swing of a forum it's not unusual to wait a week or more before logging back in to see what's been said. Done it myself. Sometimes you forget the URL. Sometimes you forget that the posting altogether. It seems more likely than a dual identity or a lurker who decided to get cute.

I'm happy to see this thread alive - I don't think it will rival the fabulous Kenny G thread but it's pretty good :)

PS. MIKE! IT'S MIKE! A classic reverse psychology mea culpa! :)
 
W

wy yung

Guest
Thanks Pol. You want to get some lunch or are you still crook?

I'd like to share something with you guys to illustrate why I see all drumming as interrelated.

Last week I travelled to one of my students house in order to conduct a lesson on his own kit. Some may recognise this young student who has already played with my old pro funk band. He's fully dedicated at age 9 and has completed several books by people such as Garibaldi, Mike Clark, Stanton Moore, Chuck Silverman to name a few.

The lesson began with the book Stick control. Several pages were utilised, rolls, triplets etc etc. So this part of the lesson related to military/parade drumming. Exercises were played with both hands and feet.

Time to have a short break and pose for a photo!



Next came jazz drumming. We used Riley's Bop drumming combined with Syncopation for the modern drummer books. So here we are with a 9 year old in 2010 working on jazz drumset ideas dating back 50 years!

I tried to get a photo of him working from the books but the camera beckoned and the mad scientist drummer responded.



With that out of the way we focused heavily on metronomic accuracy. Especially while focusing on double bass drum playing. This part of the lesson was focusing on heavy metal ideas from Rodinelli's book.



The lesson was concluded by using call and response ideas from Terry O'Mahoney's Motivic drum solos book. Call and rsponse dates back to the rhythmic history of Africa.

Time for a well earned rest.



People who do not believe all drumming is related don't know much about drumming IMO.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Such a happy boy, even if his Dad pushes him like a Hollywood Mum :) Still, if he spends all that dough on a drumkit I guess it's fair enough to expect dedication.

Yep Wy, I'm up to lunch - stopped smoking and had a good sleep last night. Just need to shower and get off this ^&%$ forum lol - doing it NOW!
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
It doesn't make any sense that Matt would do something like that. If it was meant as a troll post then it's main intention would be to get guys that play jazz, like Matt, Stan and myself, to let our anger get the best of us and in turn paint us in some sort of bad light. Why would Matt try to make musicians who, like himself, are also passionate about jazz, look bad? Just doesn't make any sense.

It's useless to point fingers because none of us know for sure and if we result to pointing fingers at other members, well then we're letting this person accomplish exactly what they intended, considering their intent was to cause dissension among the members of this forum. Up to now, we have turned this thread/topic into an interesting discussion with everybody putting in their own opinions/viewpoints and making a contribution. Let's not ruin that.

I'm still going with the instinct that it was a young guy who, in his ignorance, posted a thread where he thought he would get at least half or so of the responses agreeing with him, and then came back only to find a completely different reaction. If he really wanted to add fuel to the fire he could have made a few more posts with the same attitude and attacked some of the members for disagreeing with him.

Somebody made a good point in a previous thread not that long ago (I think it was Polly or Aydee - please correct me if I'm wrong): the thread already had a large number of posts, but the number of views of the thread greatly outweighed the number of posts, which made them bring up the point that there a lot more people than just the regular posters that view the threads on these forums. So by no means would this person need to be a regular member to know what goes on on this forum. They may have lurked in the shadows for months.

The other option, which I'm still more inclined to believe, was that it was an ignorant kid who came in with a cocky attitude thinking that a good number of people were going to back him up in his view. When it didn't work out that way, he simply took off rather than get involved in some argument where the numbers were greatly against him. He had no intention of changing his opinion to begin with and was simply looking for people to side with him.

Either way, we turned it into a positive instead of a negative, so let's keep it that way :)
 

con struct

Platinum Member
Why would Matt try to make musicians who, like himself, are also passionate about jazz, look bad? Just doesn't make any sense.
I agree that it doesn't make sense, and yet Matt seems to be trying his very best to do just that very thing to yours truly. And it makes absolutely no sense, except to him I guess.

It is indeed useless to point fingers, but Matt has pointed his finger at me as being the instigator of all this and this isn't the first time. Frankly I'm getting bloody sick of it. I wish he'd just leave me alone. What do I have to do to atone for my past sins, whatever they may be? What?

Oh well. But hey! My wife loves me! And someday I'll own my own airport!
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Um Michael, you do realise I was kidding, don't you? ... even if the circumstantial evidence is compelling ;-)
 

jazzin'

Silver Member
Does anybody else here feel that jazz drummers get way too much credit? Somebody recommended that I check out a guy named Max Roach. They said he was one of the greatest jazz drummers. Well, I looked him up on You Tube and I was hardly impressed. If this guy is one of the greatest I don't see how he could be anywhere near any of the great metal drummers. How is jazz harder to play than metal? How many jazz drummers could even come close to handling the speed that most metal songs are played? I just don't see what the big deal is when it comes to jazz drummers.
At some point, you are going to just [have to I]try[/I] and play along to some of the tunes that Max did with Clifford Brown and others.

Or, simply set your metronome to 350 bpm (ie. half note=175) now instead of playing one beat, improvise over the top of it and sing a melody while improvising (not soloing, but comping improv etc) and see how long you can keep up if you can do it at all.

Do you actually know the jazz ride pattern? I'm guessing you do, as it would be a pretty silly thing to come here and bag out some of the greatest players ever and guys that made it possible to do what you do today, without understanding the first thing about any of it.

Give it a go, see how you do at it, then go watch Roach again. It might give the first inkling of what is going there and you can take it from there.

lol
 

aydee

Platinum Member
it would be a pretty silly thing to come here and bag out some of the greatest players ever and guys that made it possible to do what you do today, without understanding the first thing about any of it.
Hear, hear. I don't have a view on over or underestimation. I do have a view on disrespect. We are talking about a guy who has been called the first bebop drummer.
 

Frost

Silver Member
I think his argument was more that no matter how technical it is it sounds bad, which as I pointed out is a matter of opinion, what one person thinks sounds bad, another believes sounds good, it's all perspective.

At some point, you are going to just [have to I]try[/I] and play along to some of the tunes that Max did with Clifford Brown and others.

Or, simply set your metronome to 350 bpm (ie. half note=175) now instead of playing one beat, improvise over the top of it and sing a melody while improvising (not soloing, but comping improv etc) and see how long you can keep up if you can do it at all.

Do you actually know the jazz ride pattern? I'm guessing you do, as it would be a pretty silly thing to come here and bag out some of the greatest players ever and guys that made it possible to do what you do today, without understanding the first thing about any of it.

Give it a go, see how you do at it, then go watch Roach again. It might give the first inkling of what is going there and you can take it from there.

lol
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
Um Michael, you do realise I was kidding, don't you? ... even if the circumstantial evidence is compelling ;-)
Yes, Polly I realized you were kidding. I just felt like some may actually have been taking it seriously. I was pretty exhausted by the time I made that post so I think I missed the sarcasm in the following posts. Maybe my fear just got the best of me that somebody was going to get p.o. and things would go south. No worries. :)
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I just want to say that I'm grateful to the OP because it sussed out

WY YUNG!

Missed ya Wy, we need you man.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Yes, Polly I realized you were kidding. I just felt like some may actually have been taking it seriously. I was pretty exhausted by the time I made that post so I think I missed the sarcasm in the following posts. Maybe my fear just got the best of me that somebody was going to get p.o. and things would go south. No worries. :)
Cool :) You know, it never occurred to me that anyone would take it seriously ... wow, if someone did ... lol

Larry, don't get too excited about Wy's visit. He's recovered from DW addiction and isn't keen to resume the habit or he might be forced to start doing break-and-enters and rolling little old Pollies in the street to finance the habit :)

Meanwhile I'm looking for a clinic that specialises in curing DW forum junkies 'cos I can't seem to quit cold turkey ...

Aydee said:
I don't have a view on over or underestimation. I do have a view on disrespect. We are talking about a guy who has been called the first bebop drummer.
Abe, re: disrespect to Max. Thing is, if a young drummer knows nothing of his rep or place in jazz's evolution, and then sees this old time guy in a suit playing single kick drum with no pyrotechnics, isn't there are good chance that he'll be disrespectful without having any idea how that may tread on people's toes? And young guys in general are not famed for their diplomacy ...
 

Frost

Silver Member
Abe, re: disrespect to Max. Thing is, if a young drummer knows nothing of his rep or place in jazz's evolution, and then sees this old time guy in a suit playing single kick drum with no pyrotechnics, isn't there are good chance that he'll be disrespectful without having any idea how that may tread on people's toes? And young guys in general are not famed for their diplomacy ...
I'm young with tons of respect (though jazz roots), not all of my friends are the same, I won one over with this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns6i4YAe11Y

He was complaining it was boring until about a minute at which point he was subsequently blown away.
 
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