Are guns killing live music?

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SmoothOperator

Gold Member
Guns are not killing live music..

With that said, its not the guns its the person(s) wielding them. Unfortunately, in todays world with all the social media, and propaganda and hatred, its easy to see large venues as targets, because its about the sensationalism in the media etc etc..

certain things do not add up with this attack.. i wont discuss all that here.. but as they say something smells fishy..

I think football stadiums are the way to go because you cant hardly sneak a fart into one of those without being busted. Here in OHIO, I attend an OSU game and they have snipers setup all around ready to plug the cancer from the crowd. Stadiums I feel offer a better avenue to control and prevent these things from happening..

not much you can do with being shot at from a hotel room that looks over the venue.. I guess when venues are planned like that, they need to look into the same security details as say head of state to identify and advise.

Sad situation, but the fleece of control is just that a fleece. When someone is hell bent on something they will see it through positive or negative.
It would be pretty easy to put a stop to it, just make gun manufacturers and distributors as well as purchasers, own insurance so that innocent by stander sand their families can recoup the cost proportional to the degree that the mechanism aided the wacko.

Say a person is a wacko with a knife or ax kills a few people. Now take a wacko that kills numerous people with some manufactured mechanism, subtract whatever one or two from the total. The remainder is manufacturing and distributing liability, to be paid out by their insurance broker(s), for aiding and abetting wackos. Let the market take its course.
 

DrumWild

Senior Member
It would be pretty easy to put a stop to it, just make gun manufacturers and distributors as well as purchasers, own insurance....
Meanwhile, I can't even get insurance on my guitar collection.

I had a pistol to my head in an August 1993 carjacking. Guy was tweaking hard. Had a 9mm semi-auto. I could tell it was loaded. Said he was "ready to kill me," and he was. Robbed me and had me pull back into the carport. Kept the gun on my left temple the entire time.

Pulled the trigger. I heard the click. He panicked and ran. His get-away van got half-way up the hill, when I heard it go off.

Police investigation brought some interesting results. The gun was legally purchased by a man as a gift to his wife 20 years prior. They loaded it up, put it in her underwear drawer, and forgot about it. Ammo sat in that thing for 20 years, slowly corroding, with primer reliability compromised.

As for tweaky carjacker, he was not armed until he robbed that house and found the gun.

Crappy gun ownership put that gun to my head. Crappy ownership caused it to not perform as expected. Those are some dark dice that you don't want to roll.

For me, every day since that day in August 1993 has been a bonus.

With every single right comes a set of responsibilities. The Second Amendment is no different. And yet, those responsibilities are not enforced. I don't know how they could be, short of home inspections to check storage and safe installation.

Bans won't work, as that's trying to put a genie back into a bottle.

Laws don't stop criminals or the insane. They punish after-the-fact. More than 20,000 gun control laws are in effect right now, so I wonder how many it would take.

The state of health care in general, and mental health care specifically, is a sad, sick joke in America.

The junkie who tried to kill me got treated like a criminal, instead of someone with a drug problem, so I'm confident he made it back to the streets to tweak once more. Probably learned more tricks while locked up, too. That problem didn't get fixed.

I lucked out. No doubt. For that winning lottery ticket, there are so many others who don't get that break that I got.

I'm very interested in answers. Solutions. My first guess is that mental health must be taken more seriously. I can't help but think of James Huberty, who desperately tried to get mental health assistance in 1984, before giving up and going "people hunting" at a McDonald's in San Ysidro. What he did is unforgivable and inexcusable, but it can be explained.

The one thing I do know is that finger-pointing and dogmatic tribal grunting will result in going nowhere. Sadly, I think it could come down to that again, as it usually does. I really want to be wrong about that.
 

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
Meanwhile, I can't even get insurance on my guitar collection.

I had a pistol to my head in an August 1993 carjacking. Guy was tweaking hard. Had a 9mm semi-auto. I could tell it was loaded. Said he was "ready to kill me," and he was. Robbed me and had me pull back into the carport. Kept the gun on my left temple the entire time.

Pulled the trigger. I heard the click. He panicked and ran. His get-away van got half-way up the hill, when I heard it go off.

Police investigation brought some interesting results. The gun was legally purchased by a man as a gift to his wife 20 years prior. They loaded it up, put it in her underwear drawer, and forgot about it. Ammo sat in that thing for 20 years, slowly corroding, with primer reliability compromised.

As for tweaky carjacker, he was not armed until he robbed that house and found the gun.

Crappy gun ownership put that gun to my head. Crappy ownership caused it to not perform as expected. Those are some dark dice that you don't want to roll.

For me, every day since that day in August 1993 has been a bonus.

With every single right comes a set of responsibilities. The Second Amendment is no different. And yet, those responsibilities are not enforced. I don't know how they could be, short of home inspections to check storage and safe installation.

Bans won't work, as that's trying to put a genie back into a bottle.

Laws don't stop criminals or the insane. They punish after-the-fact. More than 20,000 gun control laws are in effect right now, so I wonder how many it would take.

The state of health care in general, and mental health care specifically, is a sad, sick joke in America.

The junkie who tried to kill me got treated like a criminal, instead of someone with a drug problem, so I'm confident he made it back to the streets to tweak once more. Probably learned more tricks while locked up, too. That problem didn't get fixed.

I lucked out. No doubt. For that winning lottery ticket, there are so many others who don't get that break that I got.

I'm very interested in answers. Solutions. My first guess is that mental health must be taken more seriously. I can't help but think of James Huberty, who desperately tried to get mental health assistance in 1984, before giving up and going "people hunting" at a McDonald's in San Ysidro. What he did is unforgivable and inexcusable, but it can be explained.

The one thing I do know is that finger-pointing and dogmatic tribal grunting will result in going nowhere. Sadly, I think it could come down to that again, as it usually does. I really want to be wrong about that.
This would exactly work out. The person with the gun in the underwear drawer would have had to have insurance, and would legally be responsible for not keeping the gun in a locked safe, and you could sue. It was their negligence that made the firearm available to this guy. Its just like not having a fence around a swimming pool or bad security at a rock concert.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Say a person is a wacko with a knife or ax kills a few people. Now take a wacko that kills numerous people with some manufactured mechanism, subtract whatever one or two from the total. The remainder is manufacturing and distributing liability, to be paid out by their insurance broker(s), for aiding and abetting wackos. Let the market take its course.
Even if this made sense, the logic doesn't hold up. Drawing weird lines to the manufacturer of a tool when said tool is mis-used by the end user doesn't make any sense. Saying that the manufacturer or a knife, or let's say, a pencil that's stabbed through someone's eye should somehow bare responsibility for the actions it could not control just doesn't work with actual logic.
 

DrumWild

Senior Member
This would exactly work out. The person with the gun in the underwear drawer would have had to have insurance, and would legally be responsible for not keeping the gun in a locked safe, and you could sue. It was their negligence that made the firearm available to this guy. Its just like not having a fence around a swimming pool or bad security at a rock concert.
So it would be enforced after-the-fact. Quite possibly post-mortem.

It does add punishment for the negligent. Maybe the insurance companies would be forced to do in-home inspections, or something. It would also be handing out punishment to the insurance companies.

I'm still thinking that insurance companies won't touch it, mainly because the risk is too high. It's kind of like how they want young, healthy people to have health care insurance, but the older people who might get sick can take a long walk off a short pier.

Between my guitar collection, and a few other things, I've had too much contact with insurance companies. It's been unhelpful, at best.

One guy says, "I don't think we can insure your guitars, but we CAN insure collectibles with a value of up to $1,000."

What kind of crap collectibles are they talking about? I don't know. But I digress, mainly because insurance is starting to feel like an illusion.

But I'd be interested in seeing how viable this idea might be. If anyone here actually sells insurance, maybe you could chime in.

I'm thinking that insurance companies would not want to touch this with someone else's ten-foot pole.
 

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
Even if this made sense, the logic doesn't hold up. Drawing weird lines to the manufacturer of a tool when said tool is mis-used by the end user doesn't make any sense. Saying that the manufacturer or a knife, or let's say, a pencil that's stabbed through someone's eye should somehow bare responsibility for the actions it could not control just doesn't work with actual logic.
A) Pencils designed only for stabbing, with no other good use.
B) Specifically designed to stab many people as possible as fast as possible.

It doesn't make sense that the manufacturer would bare some responsibility for aiding a mass pencil stabber?

What if someone built a giant fertilizer bomb then gave it to his buddy to bomb a building, can we go after him for aiding and abetting?
 

WallyY

Platinum Member
It's in everyone's benefit to be kind to each other at all times.
We can't stop crazy.
People from all over the world join murder cults like isis.

Switzerland has a lot of machine guns kept in people's houses but they're not using them to be bad guys.

Even with mental health checks and physical exams, there are still the German Wing, Egypt Air, Malaysian Air crashes that were done by people who were not stopped.
 

WallyY

Platinum Member
A) Pencils designed only for stabbing, with no other good use.
B) Specifically designed to stab many people as possible as fast as possible.

It doesn't make sense that the manufacturer would bare some responsibility for aiding a mass pencil stabber?

What if someone built a giant fertilizer bomb then gave it to his buddy to bomb a building, can we go after him for aiding and abetting?

You're using the "pencils cause misspelled words" analogy.
Food only makes you fat if you abuse it, otherwise it keeps you alive.

Something designed for defensive use, especially if you're unlucky enough to be in a sailboat off the coast of Somalia, I want to be at least as efficient as what I'm hoping won't transpire.
 

DrumWild

Senior Member
There were other things that almost killed live music for me, such as when I went to see The Who on my 15th birthday.

11 dead. 26 injured. No weapons of any kind involved.

I think that most people have forgotten about that one. Death toll not as high, but there shouldn't ever be one. The "shoulds" of life are frustrating.

I went to a few other general admission concerts after that. The pushing and fighting wasn't as bad, but it was concerning enough that I gave it up.

I don't like big crowds, and will never go to any of those festivals. When I see crowds like this, I always wonder how they'll get out, or even how someone would get to a restroom.

Nope!

 

AzHeat

Platinum Member
Blaming objects and manufacturers is just plain ridiculous! There’s definitely something wrong with people’s heads these days and we keep talking about objects. More people die in cars every year, even though our cars now have more security features than ever. You still can’t control the driver talking on their cell, reading an article, anibreated, have their head permanently shoved up their..., speeding, making lane changes with no concern for themselves or others, the list goes on. Every year people are killed due to avoidable accidents caused by any of the above. Why not just ban cars or sue the manufacturer?

If this @$$ wipe in Vegas was willing to take out a mess of people and die in the process, than he could have taken in explosives or other chemicals to mix and make explosives and blown the whole place up.

The guy was hell bent on targeting people attending this specific concert and no one was going to stop him. I still blame the media for dehumanizing a group of people constantly. Eventually, some whack, many whacks will buy into the BS and run with it.

It doesn’t get more irresponsible and wicked than this:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-02/cnn-reporter-these-country-music-supporters-were-likely-trump-supporters

Even if they were, does this justify their deaths? Want something or someone to blame and sue? Have at it...
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
We have gotten off of the topic of Guns killing Live Music and into the "cars don't kill people, bad drivers do." Thanks for your input and for being civil. This is again a topic that will be debated forever in the US with all sides making arguments. Peace and Love.
 
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