Appreciation to Alizee Defan for promoting women's drumming

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Seafroggys

Silver Member
Ooof Arne you're killing me. Typically I really respect your posts and your insight but I feel that you're waay off on this subject.

I see that Morgan Freeman clip posted a lot in discussions like these, usually by more conservative or traditional people as a way of saying "SEEEE!!!?!?!? Even a black man agrees with us!!!!" Which is the equivelent of saying "I have a black friend, so I can't be racsist despite saying these racist things." Morgan Freeman has a well deserved reputation as an actor, and especially the characters he plays, so many people assume that he is as wise and intelligent as his characters. From the interviews I've seen of him, he gets a lot of stuff wrong, he's a bit aloof, and he's not as philosophical and wise as people make him out to be. I feel this clip is no exception......you point out one black man who says this, I can find 100,000 black men AND women who disagree.

People often say "I only judge based on their merit, I don't see race/gender/orientation/planet of birth" whatever as a sort of "enlightened centrism," but that thinking is very harmful, almost MORE harmful than overt racism/sexism because its not obvious and goes under the radar.

Drumming, and music in general, has been a boys club for a long time. There is this subconscious gatekeeping that we do. You have 10,000 male drummers, obviously some of them are going to be good. Then you have a couple of women pick up the sticks, and its an inspiration for other women and men like myself who want music to be more gender balanced. We support them. But when you have like 10 women against 10,000 men, well, you're not going to have a lot of really good players, if any. So your "enlightened centrists" will say "I don't see gender, I just see skill, and they're not that good, they're overrated, why are they being celebrated, it's because they're women, THAT'S REVERSE SEXISM!"

You see the problem here?

We need to celebrate woman drummers, for damn good reason. We are not at parity yet to where we can honestly say "It's only about skill." We have a long ass ways to go.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..Which is unfortunately something that still happens, girls being pushed to engage in more traditionally female activities because of their parents or teachers biases and gender ideals..

I have no idea to what extent this happens where you live, but here (Netherlands) really not..

The drumcorps from my little countryside village allready 40 years ago had like 50-50 female and male members, with females mostly being young girls..

With jobs like truck driver, military, car mechanic, etc maybe is different, but regarding playing an instrument really not..

If a girl wants to play drums, 9 times out of 10 she can play drums..

The question is maybe more if lots of girls WANT to play drums and put a lot of effort into practice and things like that..
 

Channing

Member
I have no idea to what extent this happens where you live, but here (Netherlands) really not..

The drumcorps from my little countryside village allready 40 years ago had like 50-50 female and male members, with females mostly being young girls..

With jobs like truck driver, military, car mechanic, etc maybe is different, but regarding playing an instrument really not..

If a girl wants to play drums, 9 times out of 10 she can play drums..

The question is maybe more if lots of girls WANT to play drums and put a lot of effort into practice and things like that..
That’s great. In America it’s not really like that. Also, even regarding putting effort into practicing, I think a lot of times it’s harder for girls to put a ton of effort into an instrument or hobby because of differing expectations based on gender. I know in other places around the world, men share housework and household chores, but where I live, in America, mostly women and girls are expected to do all the daily labor intensive stuff like cleaning, dishes, childcare, etc while men and boys get away with just doing the once a week or five minute chores like cutting the grass and taking out the trash, and it’s somehow thought of as equal or fair even though it isn’t. I think the current generation of parents of young kids are probably a bit more equitable with the assigning of household chores, but I know for myself and a lot of my friends growing up, the girls all had way more to do in terms of housework whereas the boys maybe had to cut the grass once every week or two and that was it.. I would go sleep over at my friends house and we would do their chores together. My brother would go sleep over at his friends house and they would play paintball or video games or something. Girls just had way less free time than boys. It tends to continue into adulthood and is pretty well documented that women do orders of magnitude more housework than men.

I know there are places where it’s not like this. Where I live isn’t one of them.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
Well, what I see is that I'm commenting on a subject and when comments come back they are personally directed a me. My respect is obviously not wished for because that's no way to get it.

There are an awful lot of assumptions made here.

As mentioned a few times, Norway is not the US. If you want more similar Scandinavian country that hasn't gone as far yet, it's pretty easy, just go to Sweden. Much more traditional roles than we have.

We are at a point where most women would agree that some things went to far, so whatever you consider an universal fact not everyone here would agree with. That certainly goes for young women that took it back a few notches and found a balance. We may be equal, but are certainly not the same.

People see what they want to see. I don't recognise myself in any of this. Some obviously want a fight, but I'm not gonna give it to you. We're not talking about the same thing.

Conservative? Traditional? You should probably come visit and ask around. 😂

I'm not gonna answer anything specifically, because there's too much interrogation. I don't respond to stuff like that. There's no point.

I take it American men don't do maternity leave, then?
 
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Seafroggys

Silver Member
Nope, it's a lot different in America. Hell, I'd say it's a lot different in most of Europe outside the Nordic countries.
 

Reg Dewitt

Active member
It's not just that it is worse in America than some of the European countries. Defan promotes mostly Asian female musicians, and in Asia traditional gender roles are much more entrenched than in America. In fact, there is a huge problem with the birthrate collapsing in Japan in part because so many Japanese women have decided to not get married because the traditional role for wives is so oppressive.

But in any case, I think it is clear that over the last decade Defan has done a lot to help promote females becoming drummers.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
That’s great. In America it’s not really like that. Also, even regarding putting effort into practicing, I think a lot of times it’s harder for girls to put a ton of effort into an instrument or hobby because of differing expectations based on gender.
This would be one of the many reasons I believe in the Montessori approach so much. The earlier they start and have a shared way of doing things the less likely it is that they will quit.

If there is an issue with influence from others it's not the guys, it's not their family. It will probably be their own female friends.


With jobs like truck driver, military, car mechanic, etc maybe is different, but regarding playing an instrument really not..

If a girl wants to play drums, 9 times out of 10 she can play drums..

The question is maybe more if lots of girls WANT to play drums and put a lot of effort into practice and things like that..
Yeah, it's not like girls should be forced to do typical male dominated stuff if that's not what they want. It's not about everything being 50/50, just freedom of choice.

I know plenty of women that felt aliented by their feminist friends because they didn't want the same things they did. It's not a one side issue.


In regards to female leaders in my profession repeating the unfortunate behaviors of older men, that's just a statistic reality. It's probably largely due to them exactly wanting to prove women can do what men can instead of focusing on actually doing a good job. It's about ego instead of being of service to the public. If that's one's attitude, it doesn't matter what gender, age, race you are or what sexual orientation you have. You're not fit for that position. The place I work at now, because of merging and new shared leadership, is the first time I've ever heard or seen a women finally being held responsible for behavior that would have gotten a man fired a long time ago. It's not men having issues with this, it's everyone. You can't blame men and certanly not men as a whole for that. That's getting really old. Those old men and these women that are around my own age are the same, doing the same mistakes, for the same reasons. Not hired because of experience and competence, but because of who they know,


Now, here's Siv. She's a badass and good people.


 
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GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
Please come and mow my lawn in 5 minutes. This is going the wrong way and the tribute has turned into a semi-ethical political topic and to keep all out of trouble it has been closed.
 
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