Any musical examples of quintuplets or septuplets?

SVBJECT

Regular Poster
Are not the double kick/guitar in Metallicas One septuplets?
Same as say, a 7 stroke roll. The numbers 5 and 7 most commonly occurs in said stroke rolls, but again the final note is, typically, on beat, meaning the 'tuplets' played in the measure before is actually 7-1 or 5-1 etc. The alternative would be say, a 6 stroke roll or an 8 stroke roll but they're not so common.

Gene Krupa's The Science Of Drumming, book 2, does mention the 10 stroke roll, which I suppose is a nonatuplet and a concluding strike on the beat but that's the only even stroke roll he has after the double (or long roll as he calls it).

I'm learning (well learnt but trying to tighten before recording) a kick pattern for the track my bands doing that's technically in 11/32 I think? But it's not exactly a hendecuplet, cos I'm only playing 1, 3, 5 and 7. In my mind it's a "5.5 tuplet" ie playing 4 16ths with a dotted 16th rest after it. Definitely puts some tension in the music though 👌

Rite of Spring
As in the works of the genius Stravinsky? Yes Rite of spring is all over the place on time signatures which I suppose you could represent in tuplets within a more fixed signature, but fairly sure the score is written as just having a lot of time changes.
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Platinum Member
they are all over DCI and WGI competetive marching style drumming too...
 

s1212z

Drum Expert
I love his raised eyebrow at 2:18 :ROFLMAO:
Haha, yeah! I don't know how the Bad Plus pulled it off without a conductor, must be a time signature bonanza but the the time mods I imagine have to memorized...maybe more liberties as a trio? Couldn't link a full version from YT but worth for any drummer to check it out at least once if anyone not familiar.
 

SVBJECT

Regular Poster
Haha, yeah! I don't know how the Bad Plus pulled it off without a conductor, must be a time signature bonanza but the the time mods I imagine have to memorized...maybe more liberties as a trio? Couldn't link a full version from YT but worth for any drummer to check it out at least once if anyone not familiar.
I caught part of a movie about this years ago, and just remember Igor screaming and berating his flock of ballet dancers over their lack of counting abilities, when what he was counting was this endless barrage of jumps between note denomination and note quantities! I can image the guy was a total asshole, but hell, my favourite composer by a long way. To be at the first showing of this, in Paris, with the riot partially over its vulgar content! It is the absolute apex of my "Wish I could have been there," concert list.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
I caught part of a movie about this years ago, and just remember Igor screaming and berating his flock of ballet dancers over their lack of counting abilities, when what he was counting was this endless barrage of jumps between note denomination and note quantities! I can image the guy was a total asshole, but hell, my favourite composer by a long way. To be at the first showing of this, in Paris, with the riot partially over its vulgar content! It is the absolute apex of my "Wish I could have been there," concert list.
I heard the orchestra needed a hundred rehearsals. God, can you imagine seeing THAT on your music stand, back in the day, at first rehearsal?
 
I largely play and practice 5s, 7s, 9s, 11s for reasons other than having them serve as a structural part of a beat or using them in prog-rock contexts. I prefer playing in 4/4 nearly all the time and always adhere to a strong quarter note pulse, whether or not I explicitly play it, but I there you can gain a lot of extra fluidity on drums by practicing 5s and 7s.

Time is elastic and there are numerous ways to experience the intervals between the strong, repeating pulses that define tempo in music and other natural cycles in our world. These ways don't always neatly fit into divisions of 2, 3, 4, or 8. And they don't necessarily fit once you include divisions of 5, 7, 9, 11. But practicing these odder subdivisions helps me approach the continuum of non-perfect ways to experience time and helps me free up my hands to play out-of-the-box on a moments notice without every having to think about playing quintuplets or septuplets. Practicing playing 5s and 7s helps me if I want to express a feeling of acceleration or chaos or uncertainty. They help with the rhythmic blue notes and interesting phrasing that feels good to play and can intrigue the interest of a listener.

Like s1212z said they are a great tension tool and don't necessarily need to be used as part of the skeleton of a beat.

More than anything, I maintain this skill by transitioning through the tables of time and dynamically altering between non-adjacent subdivisions, such as the Chaffee books, while keeping a solid ostinato with my feet.
 

davezedlee

Senior Member
I can't think of any. I find stuff like this borderline pointless. You practise it and then when you play it with actual people in a band, they'll just think you're playing out of time. Same with stuff like displacement. It's great if you happen to be in a band made of music nerds, but nobody will really appreciate listening to that stuff.
agree... and then to have to resort to asking for examples kinda drives the point even further
 

blinky

Senior Member
agree... and then to have to resort to asking for examples kinda drives the point even further
Well, I'm just curious, no harm in that, is there? I asked for examples in musical context to see what they sound like, and maybe get a feel for it. I'm all for expanding my vocabulary, and yes I'm into a lot of protoprog but I asked specifically for musical examples, not "drummy" stuff.
 

Seafroggys

Silver Member
Even if you're playing more "simple" styles of music, if you're afforded a drum solo, being able to break out of a triplet/16th note mold into other things, even if only for a few counts here and there, can be quite effective.
 

pgm554

Platinum Member
Same as say, a 7 stroke roll. The numbers 5 and 7 most commonly occurs in said stroke rolls, but again the final note is, typically, on beat, meaning the 'tuplets' played in the measure before is actually 7-1 or 5-1 etc. The alternative would be say, a 6 stroke roll or an 8 stroke roll but they're not so common.

Gene Krupa's The Science Of Drumming, book 2, does mention the 10 stroke roll, which I suppose is a nonatuplet and a concluding strike on the beat but that's the only even stroke roll he has after the double (or long roll as he calls it).

I'm learning (well learnt but trying to tighten before recording) a kick pattern for the track my bands doing that's technically in 11/32 I think? But it's not exactly a hendecuplet, cos I'm only playing 1, 3, 5 and 7. In my mind it's a "5.5 tuplet" ie playing 4 16ths with a dotted 16th rest after it. Definitely puts some tension in the music though 👌


As in the works of the genius Stravinsky? Yes Rite of spring is all over the place on time signatures which I suppose you could represent in tuplets within a more fixed signature, but fairly sure the score is written as just having a lot of time changes.
Lots of hemiolas.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Platinum Member
Well, I'm just curious, no harm in that, is there? I asked for examples in musical context to see what they sound like, and maybe get a feel for it. I'm all for expanding my vocabulary, and yes I'm into a lot of protoprog but I asked specifically for musical examples, not "drummy" stuff.

yeah...it is ok to ask, to learn, and to incorporate. Don't be afraid to do your own thing .

some people think that the only reason to get into music is to make money, and not to progress. The definition of success is not limited to "butts on the floor and bucks out the door" <---that is one (small) facet of success

It is ok to sometimes not think about money and/or entertaining others, and to think about progress and entertaining yourself!
 

iwearnohats

Silver Member
Well, I'm just curious, no harm in that, is there? I asked for examples in musical context to see what they sound like, and maybe get a feel for it. I'm all for expanding my vocabulary, and yes I'm into a lot of protoprog but I asked specifically for musical examples, not "drummy" stuff.
Unfortunately you'll find there are a lot of drummers out there who think that drumming should fit into their little box and not expand outside of this. Usually this little box excludes high speed, odd-time signatures and odd subdivisions. I've even seen one particular drummer years ago on the D'addario forums say he doesn't use double strokes "Because his singles are fast enough". Don't let these get you down. Play drums for you! Learn what you want to learn and play what you want to play. If we listened to those guys, then people like Virgil Donati, Dave Weckl, George Kollias, Chris Brien, Horacio Hernandez, Trilok Gurtu, Vinnie Colaiuta and Buddy Rich wouldn't exist! Instead, we'd all be playing Back in Black down at the local pub and making sure everyone could dance to it :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

I do personally utilise odd subdivisions both in practice and in musical applications. You can create some really cool 'runs' (especially with 9-note groupings). An easy one to internalise is: "RllrrLRll" which was also recently demonstrated online by Senri Kawaguchi via Drumeo. I first heard a variation of it used by Virgil Donati in "Native Metal", notated as "RlrrllRll" so a Paradiddle-diddle followed by "rll"

I mostly listen to prog and metal and to be honest, don't really listen for the odd subdivisions, but they are definitely out there. Also a great example is in Chopin's Nocturne in C# Minor, where near the end you'll find groupings of notes at 33/3, 18/3, 11/3 and 13/3. So it's not like odd numbers of notes squeezed into a space are a new thing at all. And I have definitely seen them elsewhere in the classical repertoire, but haven't really touched my piano for a few years now.
 

drumnut87

Silver Member
check out some stuff by virgil donati, he'll no doubt have incorporated both of them into his playing at some point or another :)
 
I read a Stravinsky bio years ago that claimed that when the composer began to conduct the piece, many years after its premiere, he had the conductor's score remarked with bar lines much easier to follow. I think Robert Craft claimed this, although he didn't become Stravinsky's assistant until decades later, so my recollection could be wrong. I also seem to recall that Dimitri Mitropoulos, I think it was, had Leonard Bernstein mark his score up for similar ease. ("Ease" being highly relative, of course.)
 

iwearnohats

Silver Member
check out some stuff by virgil donati, he'll no doubt have incorporated both of them into his playing at some point or another :)
Absolutely, and his book Double Bass Freedom also heavily delves into metric modulation and polyrhythms as well as incorporating odd subdivisions.

There are also the books by Gary Chaffee, Jim Chapin, as well as Stick Control (oh yes, that classic book which every pro drummer and every educator recommends), which include and apply odd subdivisions in a variety of contexts. I've also seen a hand speed 'pyramid' routine by Vinnie Colaiuta that incorporated every integer from 4 to 16 as a grouping. How you can count '15th' notes is well beyond my current capabilities, but it's certainly not a new thing.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Platinum Member
Absolutely, and his book Double Bass Freedom also heavily delves into metric modulation and polyrhythms as well as incorporating odd subdivisions.

There are also the books by Gary Chaffee, Jim Chapin, as well as Stick Control (oh yes, that classic book which every pro drummer and every educator recommends), which include and apply odd subdivisions in a variety of contexts. I've also seen a hand speed 'pyramid' routine by Vinnie Colaiuta that incorporated every integer from 4 to 16 as a grouping. How you can count '15th' notes is well beyond my current capabilities, but it's certainly not a new thing.

the MOST IMPORTANT thing that odd times/groupings teaches - at least for me - is how important the manipulation of space, within the pulse, is to creating and describing feel;

once I could play quintups, septups etc better, my understanding of straight 4 on the floor (MONEY BEATS) became way more solid because I was now thinking of the "size" of the space between notes, and how that affects groove...

expansion and contraction of space are what create style difference, at least for me, and man, my shuffles got waaayyy better as I could play odd groupings bbecasue it solidified my sense of triplet feel, whcih is what shuffles, and swing, and hip hop etc .mostly live in
 
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