Anticipations, etc.

dster

Junior Member
OK, I'm not a drummer, so please excuse the noobie character of the questions. :)

1) If you have a basic beat, say a basic rock beat, kick on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4, hi-hat playing 8th notes. Then suppose say the fourth bar is anticipated by an 8th note. Imagine that the melody and the rhythm of the tune are anticipated. Maybe it is even where the hook of the tune is. Now what is a drummer going to do there on the 4& of bar 3? Just put the kick early an 8th? Or kick and snare together on that 4&? And what is he going to put on the 1 of bar 4?

2) Similar kind of question. Suppose you got the same beat. Then imagine that there are some emphatic quarter note triplets. Again imagine a hook or sub hook again maybe on the 4th bar. Kick and snare and hat all together on the quarter note triplets?

I'm sure lots of things are possible, but what would be the most standard moves. Imagine an upbeat James Taylor song. Something like that.

Thanks
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
I knew you were going to ask that ;)

I think it would depend entirely on the context and the drummer. You'd have to define "standard" first. But what I might do in the first scenario, if i understand correctly, is play a drag or a diddle. In the second, there's a song we do where I play what you describe, again if I've got you right, of course.
 

Nancy_C

Senior Member
Imagine an upbeat James Taylor song. Something like that.
Ya lost me right there.

Ah, kidding. James and I go back to his Mud Slide Slim days (not personally -- I've never met the man). But don't the answers you seek depend on other musical characteristcs of the piece? Can they be adequatetely answered based on the available information?

I'm asking because I honestly don't know, so I'm hoping to learn from this.
 

evogel

Senior Member
There are no hard and fast rules. Some will catch the figure(s) and some will not.

It all depends on the composition, the context, etc. If you've got a chart written out and that is what's written in the part, it gets played. If the leader or the songwriter wants that part played or accented, it's done. If it interrupts the groove, it may not get played.

Big band with horn figures, then likely the drum chart will catch it. Dance groove in a club, maybe not.

The second example you give is more likely to be played in unison by the group but the first one you mention may or may not be picked up. It really depends on the song/composition, the musicians involved, etc. etc. etc. I don't mean to be evasive at all but there are too many variables to make this black and white.

Eric
 

dster

Junior Member
I knew you were going to ask that ;)

I think it would depend entirely on the context and the drummer. You'd have to define "standard" first. But what I might do in the first scenario, if i understand correctly, is play a drag or a diddle. In the second, there's a song we do where I play what you describe, again if I've got you right, of course.
I like the drag idea. (I had to watch a video to learn what a drag is!) OK, so I put a drag on the snare of 4&. What is the kick going to do on 4&? The hat? And what are the kick, snare and hat going to do on 1? And while we are at it 1&?

I get that there are no hard and fast rules. But I'm just trying to imagine the simplest beat where the drummer along with everybody else in the band catches the anticpation. You can imagine the melody note there is a quarter note or longer, so I don't think we want anything on the 1. Then how do we get back into the simple groove? Just a hat on 1&?

Thanks!
 

Diet Kirk

Silver Member
So, this sounds to me like you are writing a song and have hit some problems programming your drums.

Why not post the snippets and see what people come up with?
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
What is the kick going to do on 4&? The hat? And what are the kick, snare and hat going to do on 1? And while we are at it 1&?

I get that there are no hard and fast rules. But I'm just trying to imagine the simplest beat where the drummer along with everybody else in the band catches the anticpation. You can imagine the melody note there is a quarter note or longer, so I don't think we want anything on the 1. Then how do we get back into the simple groove? Just a hat on 1&?

Thanks!
In the first instance I'd suggest doing as little as possible. Less can be more, and the drums are there to complement and support the rest of the music, not overpower it. A crash on the & of 1 can sound pretty good though, and can help to gather things back into order.

So, this sounds to me like you are writing a song and have hit some problems programming your drums.

Why not post the snippets and see what people come up with?
^^^ Good idea!
 

dster

Junior Member
So, this sounds to me like you are writing a song and have hit some problems programming your drums.

Why not post the snippets and see what people come up with?
You are exactly right. Except, I have a lot of songs that have the same issue. I write a lot of songs on acoustic guitar and for some reason there are a lot of upstrum anticipated chords. I'm addicted to them.
When I write songs using Finale, it doesn't happen nearly as much.

I may post some snippets. It's not easy because the work machine and the internet machine are not the same. And my third machine is on the fritz.

But I just wanted some general ideas.

Still not sure about what to do with the kick when I put in a drag. I just did a bunch of drags in a tune that was anticipation city. I usually put the kick in, but not always. Depended on whether an odd beat or even beat was being anticipated.
 

dster

Junior Member
In the first instance I'd suggest doing as little as possible. Less can be more, and the drums are there to complement and support the rest of the music, not overpower it. A crash on the & of 1 can sound pretty good though, and can help to gather things back into order.



^^^ Good idea!
Thanks. Sometimes I'll start with some MIDI groove from Toontrack and then start massaging it. Maybe the kick is &1, &3. And the snare is &2, &4. So each is getting hit four times a bar. Then I need to put in some anticipate. And I don't know what to do.
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
Still not sure about what to do with the kick when I put in a drag. I just did a bunch of drags in a tune that was anticipation city. I usually put the kick in, but not always. Depended on whether an odd beat or even beat was being anticipated.
I wouldn't put the kick on the drag, meself. You don't want to squash it, the drag itself is the bit that catches your ear.
 

No Way Jose

Silver Member
I turn on a sound recorder and record a few variations of the song. I listen to playback and decide what version I like best.

You might try a drum track that follows the rhythm of the vocals, not a straight 1-2-3-4 rhythm. Record it, listen, see if you like it.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
I think you should do a flam, rest, flam, rest, flam, rest. Then you should go into a syncopated part that's not so much what it is, but what it is all together.
 

dster

Junior Member
You might try a drum track that follows the rhythm of the vocals, not a straight 1-2-3-4 rhythm. Record it, listen, see if you like it.
With harder songs, that is often where I start. I'll just hit the snare on every syllable. Then I have to try and bring in the rest of the kit and drop out as many snare hits as I can. And I don't really know how to get to a beat from there. Things often seem too orchestral. Today's song would really sound best built around just the vocal, an acoustic guitar, and a snare. I feel like I should bring in some more of the kit. There is only one short section, but it has two longish pauses and maybe three anticipations. Truth is I never really imagined what the drum part would be. I think a snare sounds great. Then I want to bring in just enough of the kit so it sounds like a kit.
 

dster

Junior Member
I think you should do a flam, rest, flam, rest, flam, rest. Then you should go into a syncopated part that's not so much what it is, but what it is all together.
I'm sorry, what beats are those on? And what would the kick be doing? That's six things you listed.

Thanks
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Probably you need to listen more? It's all right there on the recordings. Or get out and see some people play live, and see what they do. Getting your information that way is better than just being told the answer.
 

caddywumpus

Platinum Member
I think you should do a flam, rest, flam, rest, flam, rest. Then you should go into a syncopated part that's not so much what it is, but what it is all together.
...and then go into the intricate African rhythm section. Hopefully your drummer has 17 toms!
 

dster

Junior Member
Probably you need to listen more? It's all right there on the recordings. Or get out and see some people play live, and see what they do. Getting your information that way is better than just being told the answer.
You know drummers and I go way back. I loved listening to Erskine in Bass Desires. Saw him live multiple times with them actually. Love Brian Blade, Dejohnette. But that stuff is way too advanced. I would never try and program it. But then I listen to pop and a lot of the time it is just a kick and a snare. So I'm trying to understand the middle ground. Just trying to think like a drummer backing James Taylor or Paul Simon.

I should try and find some pop songs with anticipations, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
You know drummers and I go way back. I loved listening to Erskine in Bass Desires. Saw him live multiple times with them actually. Love Brian Blade, Dejohnette. But that stuff is way too advanced. I would never try and program it. But then I listen to pop and a lot of the time it is just a kick and a snare. So I'm trying to understand the middle ground. Just trying to think like a drummer backing James Taylor or Paul Simon.

I should try and find some pop songs with anticipations, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.
Right, don't listen to Jack Dejohnette to learn about pop drumming-- I'm not sure why you bring him up. But if you get out your James Taylor records, and listen to them, you can find out how the drummer orchestrates his parts generally, and then apply that to the particulars of whatever thing you're trying to program.
 
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