All this talk of Trip-lets has got me thinking..

iontheable

Senior Member
I cannot for the life of my playing 8th note triplets while keeping straight 8ths with my feet.

I have been working on this for a solid 3 weeks and I cannot seem to get the swing of things. I thought my coordination was coming along well until I had attempted this.

So, should I take a step back and work on something else? I really couldn't think of anything more remedial than this, so that is why I am here consulting you all.

Again, 8th note trips while tapping out 8th's on my feet. I can keep quarter notes with my feet much easier, obviously because where they fall, but when I step up to 8th's I lose it instantly, no matter how comfortable the BPM

Thanks
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
Where in the world would anyone want to hear three-against-two hemiola? I spent some time learning how to do and got pretty good at it, but I've never played any music that required it. I swear, sometimes I think people just come up things to learn just for being masochistic. I'm all for learning as much as you can, but there's nothing wrong with taking the "applied" approach first by looking at what the music you're playing requires first. Not every band you join will be a Frank Zappa Tribute band.

Take a break and go work on your groove. You'll be happier and the people you play with will be happier ;)
 

iontheable

Senior Member
Where in the world would anyone want to hear three-against-two hemiola? I spent some time learning how to do and got pretty good at it, but I've never played any music that required it. I swear, sometimes I think people just come up things to learn just for being masochistic. I'm all for learning as much as you can, but there's nothing wrong with taking the "applied" approach first by looking at what the music you're playing requires first. Not every band you join will be a Frank Zappa Tribute band.

Take a break and go work on your groove. You'll be happier and the people you play with will be happier ;)
Hah Bo, I had no idea this concept was 'this' rare..

More so than practicality, I wanted to accomplish this for sheer independence purposes. I figured it would really help my triplet feel, not to mention my coordination.

I've been tripping over this concept for a while, I figured I wasn't alone haha
 

JohnW

Silver Member
In the "1/4 note triplet help" thread, Boomka and I suggest approaches to help play 1/4 note triplets against 1/4 notes. It might help you play 1/8th note triplets against 1/8th notes.

And yes, Bo's right- groove is where it's at. But there's nothing like a challenge. And even if you don't directly use it in your music, being able to groove 3 against 2 will certainly add another facet to your playing. In fact once you get it down, work it into an exercise while playing to or singing a melody.

-John
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
Well, Bo is right, I never used it in a song, and I was never requested to do it, but as a coordination exercise I find it useful. :)

I would practice the 2 against 3 with all the limbs configuration possible, right hand vs right foot, right hand vs left foot, left hand vs right foot and left hand vs left foot making sure that I alternate which limbs play 2 against 3 notes on each limbs variations.

I also do a 4 way coordination of this exercise, starting with a pulse of 3 on the right hand, then add the pulse of 2 on the right foot, then the pulse of 2 on the right foot "becomes" a pulse of 3 in regard to the left foot playing a pulse of 2 against it, then same thing again, the pulse of 2 on the left foot "becomes" a pulse of 3 in regard to the left hand playing a pulse of 2 against it, it does get the mind going a bit, but it's a good way to develop independance for the limbs at the kit. :))
 

iontheable

Senior Member
Well, Bo is right, I never used it in a song, and I was never requested to do it, but as a coordination exercise I find it useful. :)

I would practice the 2 against 3 with all the limbs configuration possible, right hand vs right foot, right hand vs left foot, left hand vs right foot and left hand vs left foot making sure that I alternate which limbs play 2 against 3 notes on each limbs variations.

I also do a 4 way coordination of this exercise, starting with a pulse of 3 on the right hand, then add the pulse of 2 on the right foot, then the pulse of 2 on the right foot "becomes" a pulse of 3 in regard to the left foot playing a pulse of 2 against it, then same thing again, the pulse of 2 on the left foot "becomes" a pulse of 3 in regard to the left hand playing a pulse of 2 against it, it does get the mind going a bit, but it's a good way to develop independance for the limbs at the kit. :))
OH man MAD...I thought I had it rough haha

Wanna make a video for me? I'm such a spatial person..I understand what you're saying, but it'll be a long while before I'm able to do this..ha
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
Hah Bo, I had no idea this concept was 'this' rare..

More so than practicality, I wanted to accomplish this for sheer independence purposes. I figured it would really help my triplet feel, not to mention my coordination.

I've been tripping over this concept for a while, I figured I wasn't alone haha
No, you're not alone. And alot of people work on this particular concept, including me. Perhaps you're starting too fast because all hemiola ratios like this one sound the same (i.e., 3:2, or 7:5, 13:11, etc.,...). I just find it amusing that when you throw in these kind of concepts everyone forgets there's this idea of 'making the music feel good' and all of sudden as a drummer, nobody wants to play with you and you spend the next ten years trying to figure out why ;)
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
OH man MAD...I thought I had it rough haha

Wanna make a video for me? I'm such a spatial person..I understand what you're saying, but it'll be a long while before I'm able to do this..ha
I'm not equiped to do a video, but I have an idea, please be patient for a few days, I might be able to do something about it. :)

If it doesn't work out, I'll let you know, but the exercise in itself is not that hard to do, if you want to do it, start slowly and concentrate on the pulse of each limb. :)
 

iontheable

Senior Member
I'm not equiped to do a video, but I have an idea, please be patient for a few days, I might be able to do something about it. :)

If it doesn't work out, I'll let you know, but the exercise in itself is not that hard to do, if you want to do it, start slowly and concentrate on the pulse of each limb. :)
Thanks MAD, I'll patiently start playing 3:2 on various limbs and see where I can get.

Thanks to all
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
3:2 is not a lick, and it's not a far-out idea- it's actually foundational to, well, any music using the drumset. Any music with African roots. I would say you can't play the drums with any sophistication at all without having a command over it, whether or not you regularly play things that can instantly be identified as a hemiola.

Anyway, what's the problem, Ion, do you not understand how the parts line up, or do you just need to practice?
 

Chaos_Inferno

Silver Member
No, you're not alone. And alot of people work on this particular concept, including me. Perhaps you're starting too fast because all hemiola ratios like this one sound the same (i.e., 3:2, or 7:5, 13:11, etc.,...). I just find it amusing that when you throw in these kind of concepts everyone forgets there's this idea of 'making the music feel good' and all of sudden as a drummer, nobody wants to play with you and you spend the next ten years trying to figure out why ;)
Now this I disagree with. If you play odd-time stuff and play those sorts of things properly you can make either feel groove... REALLY HARD, as though it's in 4/4, which is an amazing concept.

Gavin Harrison is the undisputed king of doing this in my mind.
 

Too Many Songs

Senior Member
3:2 is not a lick, and it's not a far-out idea- it's actually foundational to, well, any music using the drumset. Any music with African roots. I would say you can't play the drums with any sophistication at all without having a command over it, ..QUOTE]

I agree with Todd and if I had time I'd try to explain why this is the foundation of all jazz. My view is that spang-a-lang is basically 3 against 2 but with the triplet starting on the second beat of the measure.

But for the moment, a 3 against 2 groove: try the bo-diddley riff. Now that works fantastically well as 3 against 2. I'm sure Larry has mentioned this before now on this forum.
 
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Geoff_fry01

Member
iontheable, just search the net for vidoes teaching you how to play 3 over 2 polyrhythms.. once you have that with your hands then it will be much easier to figure out what you are trying to do with your feet..

I have one here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEwckZNWdII thou very old (so please excuswe the sound and picture quality) and on a slight different theme, but If you watch that then search for 3 over 2 poly rhythm you will have it sorted easily.. Just remember practice this stuff SLOW!

G
 

Drumfy

Member
It's ok as long as they're both 8th notes. Mixing 16th notes with 8th note triplets is not pretty (3:4). That's why straight breakes in a shuffle sound so awful, and why sextuplets are great for jazz breaks.
 

Fuo

Platinum Member
Is this a coordination problem, or time problem? Are you trying one hand/foot or alternating both hands over one foot? Or both feet?

If its a timing problem (one hand, one foot) then try programming it into some software that can play it (drum machine like Hydrogen, or MIDI composition like Finale), and play along until it starts to feel comfortable.

If its coordination (multi hands/feet) then... I dunno, I'm in the same boat :) Just keep practicing. Simplify and slowly build up (just hands, then add one foot, then add both feet, or vice versa (start with feet and add hands)).
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
Where in the world would anyone want to hear three-against-two hemiola? I spent some time learning how to do and got pretty good at it, but I've never played any music that required it. I swear, sometimes I think people just come up things to learn just for being masochistic. I'm all for learning as much as you can, but there's nothing wrong with taking the "applied" approach first by looking at what the music you're playing requires first. Not every band you join will be a Frank Zappa Tribute band.

Take a break and go work on your groove. You'll be happier and the people you play with will be happier ;)
I don't see how being able to hear three over two doesn't help your groove. One would think that a deeper understanding of pulse and rhythmic relationships (especially the two most common subdivisions) would be a boon to playing a good groove.

But, if you're looking for practical application: The ability to hear the relationship of duple to triple meter is exceedingly helpful for keeping the groove when shifting gears from a swung feel to straight eighths, e.g. when playing On Green Dolphin Street, for metric modulation, changing from a duple to triple metered time signature in a medley (I've had to do this plenty) or even within the same piece (West Side Story comes to mind...) or even to play a triplet fill in a tune based on straight eighths. There are some 60s pop tunes with quarter-note triplets played within a straight eighths feel like The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Any More. Does it get any more vanilla than Frankie Valli? Being able to play/hear a 3:2 polyrhythm makes playing those a doddle. Those are all things I've had to do in the past 6 months on various gigs.

For me, one of the best ways to really get the sound and feel of various polyrhythms into my bones is to play them using the top and bottom halves of my body or with two limbs. I'm as big a pragmatist as the next guy, but sometimes a little abstraction goes a long, long way to making practical application much simpler.
 
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Boomka

Platinum Member
3:2 is not a lick, and it's not a far-out idea- it's actually foundational to, well, any music using the drumset. Any music with African roots. I would say you can't play the drums with any sophistication at all without having a command over it, whether or not you regularly play things that can instantly be identified as a hemiola.
100% in agreement here, Todd.
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
No, you're not alone. And alot of people work on this particular concept, including me. Perhaps you're starting too fast because all hemiola ratios like this one sound the same (i.e., 3:2, or 7:5, 13:11, etc.,...). I just find it amusing that when you throw in these kind of concepts everyone forgets there's this idea of 'making the music feel good' and all of sudden as a drummer, nobody wants to play with you and you spend the next ten years trying to figure out why ;)
I've yet to lose a gig for being able to play nice triplets over a straight meter to create tension when called for. Or for playing perfect quarter-note triplets against a quarter note ride cymbal on a jazz gig. Or for playing loosey-goosey triplets in a samba without dropping the bass drum groove. Or for being able to come out of a slow triplet swing or 12/8 ballad into a straight latin feel (Try doing this on Lover Man) without losing the pulse, or even launch into double time swing right on the money. I've yet to lose a gig for being able to navigate the cracks between 3 and 2 on James Brown tunes or Drum n Bass tracks. These are just some of the practical applications of having a 3:2 hemiola internalised.

As Todd says, it's not about playing a hemiola lick per se (though I do that sometimes) but about practicing the concept to get it buried in you so you can do all this other stuff.
 
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Arky

Platinum Member
I cannot for the life of my playing 8th note triplets while keeping straight 8ths with my feet. (...)Thanks
I find this more on the easy side - and I'm into drums for 16 months. But that's because I started with stuff like that almost right away, maybe in my 3rd month of drumming.

Climbing up and down the rhythm ladder with one pair of limbs while maintaining the same tempo with the other pair (hands vs. feet, or vice versa) is an exercise I've seen being recommended on lots of instructionals. Maybe not on tons, but it's quite common (e.g. on the instructional VHS by Mike Terrana). So I'm a bit surprised that this seems some problem to experienced drummers...

If you want to work on it - just slow down as necessary, to a tempo which allows you to get into it, and work from there. Hey, I've been there, and if I can do it as a beginner then you can do it while twirling sticks or something ;-)
 
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