A vs. A custom hammering

defregano

Member
not that its a big deal but ive been playing A's and A customs for a long time and always thought they had a different hammering. Zildjian mentions the radical hammertechnique they use on a customs. But i just noticed the hammering looks the same on both series. The hammer marks look the same as does the placement. Am i wrong? RIght? Do you even give a crap?? let me know
 
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MikeM

Platinum Member
I noticed the same thing in the Z lit. about radical rotary hammering and wondered if there was any difference... Anyone?
 
M

mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
I noticed the same thing in the Z lit. about radical rotary hammering and wondered if there was any difference... Anyone?
Overpriced, no human interaction in the manufacturing process. Overpriced, no real workmanship. That's my view on ALL Zildjian.
 

ENRICO

Silver Member
the main difference between a and a custom is their profile , the hammering is pretty similar.

I also think that they are overpriced , how can they be so expensive if the machines do all the work?
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
Overpriced, no human interaction in the manufacturing process. Overpriced, no real workmanship. That's my view on ALL Zildjian.
I think markets do a pretty good job in determining what is overpriced. Certainly Zildjian knows this.

The fact that there isn't a human doing the hammering on any Zildjian cymbals (K Cons, too?) means very little to me. From what I can discern, the biggest difference between Sabian and Zildjian isn't in how they hammer their cymbals (human vs. machine), but in the work that happens on the metal up until that point.

Even if they're using the exact same b20 (which I'm not certain they are), they're probably not using the same heating and rolling techniques (different temperatures, different number of rollings, etc).

There's something "softer" about Sabians as a result, and they're not as bright. I've had lots of pies from both companies and almost straight across the board, the Zildjians always come out higher in pitch and more dense in feel while Sabian has the deeper tone and feel almost dead in comparison. Doesn't matter if they're machine hammered or not. (my current setup is about a 50/50 mix between the two - and a 2oo2). I have a slight preference for Zildjian over Sabian just because I like a brighter, easier to play cymbal.

As an engineer, I think it's pretty cool that they've implemented a randomizing algorithm to vary the pressure and location of hammer strikes on the Ks and I'm not shedding a tear for the displaced cymbalsmith as a result. I think they're getting a more consistent product. (I should also note that with the exception of a K ride that I picked up used, I generally don't do K. Zildjians)

If I was looking for something made by a human, I would probably be looking to one of the Turkish makers anyway.
 

Homeularis

Gold Member
I don't give a rats a_ _ if a human or machine does the hammering as long as its done well.
Bottom line, A Customs look, feel and sound awsome. What else is there?.
$650.00 for a 20" ride, 18" crash, 16" crash, 14" HH and a 22" gig bag.
Not overpriced. No way. No how.
 
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ENRICO

Silver Member
I think markets do a pretty good job in determining what is overpriced. Certainly Zildjian knows this.

The fact that there isn't a human doing the hammering on any Zildjian cymbals (K Cons, too?) means very little to me. From what I can discern, the biggest difference between Sabian and Zildjian isn't in how they hammer their cymbals (human vs. machine), but in the work that happens on the metal up until that point.

Even if they're using the exact same b20 (which I'm not certain they are), they're probably not using the same heating and rolling techniques (different temperatures, different number of rollings, etc).

There's something "softer" about Sabians as a result, and they're not as bright. I've had lots of pies from both companies and almost straight across the board, the Zildjians always come out higher in pitch and more dense in feel while Sabian has the deeper tone and feel almost dead in comparison. Doesn't matter if they're machine hammered or not. (my current setup is about a 50/50 mix between the two - and a 2oo2). I have a slight preference for Zildjian over Sabian just because I like a brighter, easier to play cymbal.

As an engineer, I think it's pretty cool that they've implemented a randomizing algorithm to vary the pressure and location of hammer strikes on the Ks and I'm not shedding a tear for the displaced cymbalsmith as a result. I think they're getting a more consistent product. (I should also note that with the exception of a K ride that I picked up used, I generally don't do K. Zildjians)

If I was looking for something made by a human, I would probably be looking to one of the Turkish makers anyway.
a guy in cymbalholics.com analized the alloy in a couple of zildjian cymbals and the one wich were made in the 70' were B20 but the modern ones were between B17 and B17.5 , may be that's why zildjians sound brigther and not as soft as sabian
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
a guy in cymbalholics.com analized the alloy in a couple of zildjian cymbals and the one wich were made in the 70' were B20 but the modern ones were between B17 and B17.5 , may be that's why zildjians sound brigther and not as soft as sabian
Interesting. I would be curious to see a similar analysis done on some Sabians.
 

AtonalConductor

Junior Member
Hammering is not a random process though. Or at least it shouldn't be.

For $650 you could get two sets of high quality handmade cymbals. I just don't get the appeal of paying twice as much for comparable quality cymbals that only do one thing and have almost no complexity. I love the lack of consistency in the handmade process. I don't want to sound like anybody else!
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
Hammering is not a random process though. Or at least it shouldn't be!
You're right, of course. If you take a cymbal and machine hammer it, you're going to input the parameters that go like: hit it this hard at these exact spacings around the cymbal in concentric circles this far apart.

If you're going to hand hammer a cymbal, you're going to tell yourself: I want my hammer strikes to be about this hard distributed about the cymbal to get roughly this amount of hammering density, give or take.

It's not a huge stretch to get a machine to mimic a person with a process like that: give me roughly this many hammer marks per square inch and hammer hard enough to make a ding but not so hard as to weaken the cymbal. Anything between those parameters gets randomized and viola! - simulated human!

Where you can't get a machine to do it is in a production facility where the hammering determines the shape of the profile, and just about everything else that characterizes a cymbal (or perhaps you could...).

I don't see that Sabian is doing that with their hand hammered cymbals; more like they're taking already shaped cymbals and adding some hammer marks with a person just to alter the path of the vibrations through the cymbal to darken it up a bit and add some complexity, but no radical shaping is happening with the hammering.

It's just not that different from what Zildjian is doing from what I can tell. It's just that Zildjian is taking that person out of the equation since what they're doing isn't at the level of sophistication/personalization as what the traditional Turkish cymbal makers are doing.
 

yamaha

Junior Member
I think alot of you are forgetting, they're not hand hammered, but they are hand lathed, so each one will sound slightly different, also, hand hammering is an old process that has few if any advantages over machine hammering imo. I'm someone who normally much prefers hand made, custom work, and i'm a fan of istanbul agop cymbals, however, i dont believe that hand hammering producing sound any better than machine hammered.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
I think alot of you are forgetting, they're not hand hammered, but they are hand lathed, so each one will sound slightly different, also, hand hammering is an old process that has few if any advantages over machine hammering imo. I'm someone who normally much prefers hand made, custom work, and i'm a fan of istanbul agop cymbals, however, i dont believe that hand hammering producing sound any better than machine hammered.
Not "better" but produces a different end result is what I always say when the hand hammering/machine hammering debate comes up. Hand shaping of the initial profile and hand hammering of cymbals DOES have some advantages over machine made cymbals. Those advantages are for those seeking out very complex, dark, rich and distinct in individual character cymbals. Not everyboby is after these sounds and personality from their cymbals so the "advantages" of still seeking out those sounds is based on a very personal sound{s} decision usually in the context of certain types of acoustic music making from my experience.

Play what your ear digs but be aware that each type of cymbal making process DOES produce cymbals of very different distinct characteristics at the end of the day.
 
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