Bo Eder
Platinum Member
So I've seen this meme pop up of Buddy Rich quoted to have said "If you don't have ability you wind up playing in a rock band", and I of course, chuckled, but apparently ALOT of people out there were quite offended.
Some people argued that "well, I'd like to see Buddy play in Rush", or some other nonsense. And while this is a "everybody is kinda right" situation, being older, I can see where Buddy was coming from.
Jazz, before rock n roll, before political correctness, was very much a "prove your mettle" situation. There's a story Bill Cosby (that Bill Cosby) told when he was a young wanna-be drummer sitting in with a band: the band kicked off something like "Cherokee", and he literally couldn't keep up. The great Mickey Roker basically shooed Bill off the drums and took his place and played the tune instead. Very humbling for Mr. Cosby at the time - probably what made him pursue other avenues of maybe making a living!
Jazz in the bop era was all about musical muscle. Listen to standards like "Cherokee" or "Giant Steps", and you hear the band flying along - as well as expressing themselves musically. If you don't even have the chops to play really fast like that, how are you supposed to drive the band? Even later jazz bands still played physically demanding speeds, like check out Will Kennedy with the Yellowjackets on a tune called "The Spin". The studio recording was fast, but on their "Live Wires" live album, they went even faster. Tony Williams with Miles Davis on the live "Four & More' album? If you're struggling to play "spang-a-lang" on an medium swing number, that album might make you just give it up. No, it was not screaming fast bass drum licks, or odd-times to make your head spin, but it is what it is, and back then (and even now). Jazz chops are different from Rock n roll chops, and I think the difference is pretty apparent - compare Sonny Emory to Terry Bozzio - both brilliant, but Sonny always sounds more musical (Terry even admitted this).
Considering how many people argued that "Buddy couldn't play in Rush or Dream Theater", well, in a way, do I want to see Buddy as a sideman playing for somebody else? Would you want to hear Stevie Ray Vaughn play Bach preludes on guitar? There are sidemen, and there are flat-out celebrities who are paid to do what they do. Buddy falls into this category (as does Stevie Ray Vaughn). Having said that, do you really want to see Vinnie Colaiuta front his own band? I think sidemen have different mentalities compared to the celebrities - their thing is all about perfect execution for a common goal. But as much as I love Steve Gadd, his albums for the Gadd Gang kinda put me to sleep.
So I think people miss the point of what Buddy said and chose to get offended rather than look at why he said it. There is a physical boundary you have to pass to be able to play screaming jazz - and even scarier is how many players out there who can actually do it that we don't know about. There is indeed a physical boundary regarding other genres, like double bass drumming with Meshuggah, and that's cool too - that is what it is too. But I doubt alot of the "rock" guys could sit in with the high caliber jazz bands and survive the set. And I've seen well-rounded jazz guys sit in with a rock band easily, and alot of the busy ones probably don't need (or want) to play rock n roll anyway. Without having this thread spiral out of control, did I make any sense? Or is the subject still incendiary?
Some people argued that "well, I'd like to see Buddy play in Rush", or some other nonsense. And while this is a "everybody is kinda right" situation, being older, I can see where Buddy was coming from.
Jazz, before rock n roll, before political correctness, was very much a "prove your mettle" situation. There's a story Bill Cosby (that Bill Cosby) told when he was a young wanna-be drummer sitting in with a band: the band kicked off something like "Cherokee", and he literally couldn't keep up. The great Mickey Roker basically shooed Bill off the drums and took his place and played the tune instead. Very humbling for Mr. Cosby at the time - probably what made him pursue other avenues of maybe making a living!
Jazz in the bop era was all about musical muscle. Listen to standards like "Cherokee" or "Giant Steps", and you hear the band flying along - as well as expressing themselves musically. If you don't even have the chops to play really fast like that, how are you supposed to drive the band? Even later jazz bands still played physically demanding speeds, like check out Will Kennedy with the Yellowjackets on a tune called "The Spin". The studio recording was fast, but on their "Live Wires" live album, they went even faster. Tony Williams with Miles Davis on the live "Four & More' album? If you're struggling to play "spang-a-lang" on an medium swing number, that album might make you just give it up. No, it was not screaming fast bass drum licks, or odd-times to make your head spin, but it is what it is, and back then (and even now). Jazz chops are different from Rock n roll chops, and I think the difference is pretty apparent - compare Sonny Emory to Terry Bozzio - both brilliant, but Sonny always sounds more musical (Terry even admitted this).
Considering how many people argued that "Buddy couldn't play in Rush or Dream Theater", well, in a way, do I want to see Buddy as a sideman playing for somebody else? Would you want to hear Stevie Ray Vaughn play Bach preludes on guitar? There are sidemen, and there are flat-out celebrities who are paid to do what they do. Buddy falls into this category (as does Stevie Ray Vaughn). Having said that, do you really want to see Vinnie Colaiuta front his own band? I think sidemen have different mentalities compared to the celebrities - their thing is all about perfect execution for a common goal. But as much as I love Steve Gadd, his albums for the Gadd Gang kinda put me to sleep.
So I think people miss the point of what Buddy said and chose to get offended rather than look at why he said it. There is a physical boundary you have to pass to be able to play screaming jazz - and even scarier is how many players out there who can actually do it that we don't know about. There is indeed a physical boundary regarding other genres, like double bass drumming with Meshuggah, and that's cool too - that is what it is too. But I doubt alot of the "rock" guys could sit in with the high caliber jazz bands and survive the set. And I've seen well-rounded jazz guys sit in with a rock band easily, and alot of the busy ones probably don't need (or want) to play rock n roll anyway. Without having this thread spiral out of control, did I make any sense? Or is the subject still incendiary?
