32nd notes in a 16th note fill - singles or doubles?

Diet Kirk

Silver Member
In a similar vein to the other thread about single or double choices.

Little hands up poll. When you are playing 16th note fills and you want to slot in four 32nd notes to give it that little pep, do you play singles or doubles?
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Depends on the tempo. If I am still well within my singles range, I use them. Singles would be my preferred method. If it gets too close to my singles ceiling, then I would upshift to doubles. So it's tempo dependent.
 

drummer-russ

Gold Member
My single speed is one of the things I am most disappointed about in my recent restart drumming. So I go to doubles. I think I could really use a teachers assistance to get past the plateau I am currently experiencing. I do continue to work on rudiments and basic things that I am weak at but have not had the time to jump in to make my singles faster since a lot of time is spent learning new songs. My current band is getting really close to not have too many new songs to learn so maybe the time is coming to improve the singles.
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
Man, I don't know that I ever play 32nds, but if/when I do, they're singles. I almost never use double strokes.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
The answer all-around is "it depends".

Typically, I think for most "fast runs" on the kit, the default is going to be just hammer them out LRLR(or opposite if you prefer). In certain fills or grooves, it makes either sonic or physical sense to grab a few double strokes in there. Firstly, they sound different. Secondly, sometimes I need to have my left hand close to my hats for the next note, while I still have two notes left on the floor tom... Usually that kind of thing would push me towards making it a double with one hand.

I think there are just too many variables... I will say one thing, though... It's almost never the tempo or speed of the song/passage that leads me to use double-strokes. It's not really a means to an end for that...

Here's something to think about. Thinking about a 16th note-based train beat. Accenting and what not, you could either play that as 4 single strokes, or two sets of double strokes. Accents bolded (2 and 4)... RLRLRLRL or RRLLRRLL Try it. You'll see what I mean about how it changes the sound, execution and feel of the groove, just by playing the notes with different sticking. Use a metronome to make sure you're on the same note-spacing!
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
For rock/metal I do singles alot... I'm actually to the point my singles I can do as fast as the song is written.

I've been working on doubles and rudiments lately and am trying to switch... Singles are more consistent and powerful. Doubles have more of a groove to em.

To be honest I'm trying to get away from 32 note runs around the kit as that gets old quick.. the best thing to learn is to combine singles and doubles and make interesting fills.. Speed is overrated (this is coming from a deathmetal drummer who does heel toe and blasts lol) I really want someone to teach me rudiments and the basics.

just watch some gosple drumming youtube videos for some pretty cool licks and fills
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
I'm with Wave on this one. In a rock context I'm never playing doubles on the toms. It just drops the volume and attack too much.
Even sounding and spaced notes is basically my entire goal typically when I'm working on doubles. Good finger-work (or wrist if slow enough) is required to get volume out of the second stroke.
 

Jeff Almeyda

Senior Consultant
Even sounding and spaced notes is basically my entire goal typically when I'm working on doubles. Good finger-work (or wrist if slow enough) is required to get volume out of the second stroke.
Definitely true, but rock drummers use singles on toms. That was my point. Even in a fill that incorporates double strokes, those doubles tend to be on a snare in a rock context.

In a gospel, funk or fusion context, sure. But in rock, you will sound like a fusion drummer if you start playing double strokes on your tom fills.
 

Kroy

Member
This thread has inspired me to write this snare drum piece, which is a workout for 32nd notes based around the Three Camps structure. It can be used for single or double stroke sticking, or even double bass drum.

If you'd like to give it a go you can download the full pack (PDF, MIDI file & Practice MP3s), or just the PDF here: http://www.drum2one.co.uk/resources.html

(There's no sticking written out - you simply alternate all the way (doubles = RRLL R L etc). That way RH & LH equally share being lead hand. There are some more suggestions on the PDF. I've also included some practice MP3s and MIDI file).

A listen to one of the MP3s will give a quick overview of the piece..
 
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Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Definitely true, but rock drummers use singles on toms. That was my point. Even in a fill that incorporates double strokes, those doubles tend to be on a snare in a rock context.

In a gospel, funk or fusion context, sure. But in rock, you will sound like a fusion drummer if you start playing double strokes on your tom fills.
I do it all the time, and trust me, I've never been accused of being a fusion drummer. Especially for stuff on the floor tom, it's usually more efficient to play two on my right hand than bring both over. As long as you really snap the second stroke and don't just let it flop down with gravity like I see some guys do, it sounds just fine.
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
I do it all the time, and trust me, I've never been accused of being a fusion drummer. Especially for stuff on the floor tom, it's usually more efficient to play two on my right hand than bring both over. As long as you really snap the second stroke and don't just let it flop down with gravity like I see some guys do, it sounds just fine.
THIS!!!

My doubles suck compaired to my singles but I wish someone explained this to me early on in my drumming.. make the second stroke sound like its a single.

Practice making the second stroke LOUDER on your double rolls,

I've been adding doubles in to my death metal stuff lately... pretty sure it doesn't make me sound like I'm playing fusion either
 

Jeff Almeyda

Senior Consultant
I would like to see/hear a video of a rock/metal guy playing a fill at 110 BPM, throwing 32nd note doubles on the toms and not have the volume not drop off compared to the 16ths.

The only way that the second stoke of a double can be louder than the first is if you are going slowly enough to make two separate motions, and snap the fingers on the second stroke.

This does not occur at high speeds. At high speeds it becomes a single, compound motion employing rebound.
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
when you say 110bpm I would say 220

My bands songs areusually 220-240bpm...

so when I play 16th notes at 220-240 that's the same as 32nd notes at 110-120 i suppose?

for a second i thought you meant 32nd at 220 and was thinking. umm no. haha

for me I'm an awful example of double strokes because I've always done singles. as i said. I'm STARTING to add them in to my metal playing. I am not as consistent and rely on rebound

but 32nd note doubles at 110 seems totally reasonable if you ask me.

I do get what your saying though. I meant for practice hitting the second stroke harder and working it up to speed. that way when your doing fast double fills it sounds more consistent.
 

BillBachman

Gold Member
For me it depends on the dynamic desired, the sound desired, the surface I'm playing on and the speed. That's a lot of variables!

That said, having all of your options open with some pretty dialed in hands offers more choices and makes choosing easier. :)
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
The only way that the second stoke of a double can be louder than the first is if you are going slowly enough to make two separate motions, and snap the fingers on the second stroke.

This does not occur at high speeds. At high speeds it becomes a single, compound motion employing rebound.
You've got your thinking a little bit incorrect here... Never should you not be in control of both notes in a double. Regardless of speed. The big difference between fast and slow doubles, at least for my playing, is that slower is usually mostly wrist... Faster is when I start using my fingers more to snap the stick back down after the rebound. But you gotta really snap that sucker to get the right volume and sound.

I flog it here all the time, but rudiment exercises such as the "long roll" from slow to fast really bring home the point of making sure both notes in a double sound even throughout the speed range. It takes a lot of practice, and the concept isn't really apparent to most newer drummers until they start to learn from an explanation or teacher.

And again, it is often a choice based on things like sound, dynamics, and physical limitations of only having two arms that decide if a set of two notes will be with one hand or two. Typically it is not speed that makes the decision for me.
 

Jeff Almeyda

Senior Consultant
You've got your thinking a little bit incorrect here... Never should you not be in control of both notes in a double. Regardless of speed. The big difference between fast and slow doubles, at least for my playing, is that slower is usually mostly wrist... Faster is when I start using my fingers more to snap the stick back down after the rebound. But you gotta really snap that sucker to get the right volume and sound.

I flog it here all the time, but rudiment exercises such as the "long roll" from slow to fast really bring home the point of making sure both notes in a double sound even throughout the speed range. It takes a lot of practice, and the concept isn't really apparent to most newer drummers until they start to learn from an explanation or teacher.

And again, it is often a choice based on things like sound, dynamics, and physical limitations of only having two arms that decide if a set of two notes will be with one hand or two. Typically it is not speed that makes the decision for me.
I don't get it, are you saying that you can play a 32nd note double stroke roll at 110 BPM while accenting the second stroke? Because that was the point of my post.

Are you also saying that doubles at that speed can be as loud as singles at that speed? Really?

If you can do so please show me because you would be the first.
 

bud7h4

Silver Member
For me it depends on the dynamic desired, the sound desired, the surface I'm playing on and the speed. That's a lot of variables!

That said, having all of your options open with some pretty dialed in hands offers more choices and makes choosing easier. :)

Good post. Singles, doubles, they're tools. More often than not there's no one way to do something but I obviously try to use the best tool for the job. The best technique to use depends on so many things, for example where you want to be on the kit before/after the fill. Alternatively I my intentionally use one or the other purely for the challenge, or more accurately, to work on a weak area.
 
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