‘In ear monitor’ experiments

S

Stickman

Silver Member
I’ve been trying out the KZ IEMs for a few months.. but only for practicing by myself. Just figuring out the best setup etc. Great for playing along to tracks or just a click.

So I tried it out on an outdoor gig at a fair yesterday - just for the click from my phone metronome app.. and immediately ran into several issues:
- the click was great for nailing the count in quickly.. but as soon as the full band kicked in it disappeared. I could have cranked it up.. but tinnitus is nobodies friend! So plan B just use them as ear plugs no click.
- the stage mix was too loud. I thought IEMs would work as ear protection.. but not the case. They did bring the general volume down but it seemed to distort the loud vocals and make them even louder! Often..i thought my hearing would get fried several times when the vocals peaked. Fortunately its okay today but not worth the risk.
Maybe the ear bud needs more foam? It came with black semi rubbery solid foam tips.

- the sound guy offered to give me an in-ear mix.. but I didnt want to risk it live on stage..yet.

- so the other issue was the weight of the cable. It frequently pulled down my back and would regularly pull on the ear loop.. sometimes pulling right off! Not sure what the solution for that is.. tie it to my chair back?

I bought the upgraded cable which very marginally improved the sound.. but is heavier than the original cable.. might give the lighter cable another try..

- i’ve been using a small mixer to EQ the sound as the highs and lows are thin.. but heard a small amp adaptor might be better - will that boost the bass and fill in the treble?
The sound is definitely there.. sounds awesome when EQed.. but I would replace the mixer with a tiny amp adaptor if does the same thing…

thats all for now.. thanks in advance..
 
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I would definitely recommend upgrading to the foam ear tips from the stock ones.

Due to a tinnitus scare a decade ago, I am ultra careful about my ears these days, and actually wear the KZ IEMs with Vic Firth drum headphones on top. Allows me to keep the mix very low in my ears, but still 'feel' the drum kit.
 
I use Comply foam tips on my in-ears and I typically don't have any problems with bleed. You have to make sure they're the correct size; if you've got big old earholes, the medium or small size tips aren't going to seat well and you'll have sound leaking in.

if you're using a small mixer, you should be getting all the EQ you need. Now you should be working with the sound man to get exactly what you need in your send, including more bass and less treble if that's what you want.

As far as the cable, I've never had one pull on my earpieces from its own weight. You can clip it off on your shirt collar or belt loop if it continues to give you problems. I never do; I just let it hang straight down my back, no issues.
 
Sorry to break it to you, but that’s why custom fitted molds are so important. When I use my Ultimate Ears, I can’t hear anything unless it’s coming into the Ultimate ears. Everything outside is almost gone - this is what allows you to turn the mix down in your ears, thus saving your hearing.

Go get fitted and spend the money on real In-ear monitors.

While you’re at it, you might as well get a proper system too. I use the Sennheiser XSW wireless IEM system and you can control the volume to your ears from the pack, and you let the sound guy give you a mix of what you want to hear.

In my opinion, this is why I think people who try, and then hate IEMs are the way they are. This is something you have to do right or you get the wrong first impression. It changes everything for the better if everyone on stage is doing it. But it’s also important to know when you don’t need it too so you don’t make every show you do more complicated than it needs to be. It’s always good to be well-versed in them.
 
Bo Eder said:
Sorry to break it to you, but that’s why custom fitted molds are so important.
Click to expand...
Bo is correct. It's the only way to achieve useful isolation.

As for the mix, when using a click or track, that is the most important thing in the mix. You should not expect to hear a pleasing, listenable mix - the click is everything. Maybe your drums should be equal to the click, but everything else needs to be lower so you can work with the click and keep the levels comfortable. Have some vocals, guitar, maybe keys for reference, but keep them low in your mix. I call it a 'need-to-know' mix. Basically, what you don't hear is as important as what you need to hear to play the song.

Of course when you're not using a click, feel free to make a nice, musical mix for yourself. :)
 
Comply Ear Foam tips will help with the KZ in-ears.
Run the cable down inside the back of your shirt.
Maybe use a small piece of surgical tape to attach the cable to at the back of your neck, for security.

Not easy to do on your own so you might need help with that.
Mick
 
I recommend you go all in on IEMs or don't use them. That is, use them as full in-ear monitors with a personal monitor amp (like the Behringer Powerplay P1) or just use a wedge monitor (ugh). The in-between approach is probably producing an awkward blend of both approaches in which nothing works well. It's like when I was in high school and would call a girl and just talk; my mom would say, "Ask her out or don't call her. Just talking is just making it weird." She was right.
 
Stickman said:
I’ve been trying out the KZ IEMs for a few months.. but only for practicing by myself. Just figuring out the best setup etc. Great for playing along to tracks or just a click.

So I tried it out on an outdoor gig at a fair yesterday - just for the click from my phone metronome app.. and immediately ran into several issues:
- the click was great for nailing the count in quickly.. but as soon as the full band kicked in it disappeared. I could have cranked it up.. but tinnitus is nobodies friend! So plan B just use them as ear plugs no click.
- the stage mix was too loud. I thought IEMs would work as ear protection.. but not the case. They did bring the general volume down but it seemed to distort the loud vocals and make them even louder! Often..i thought my haring would get fried several times when the vocals peaked. Fortunately its okay today but not worth the risk.
Maybe the ear bud needs more foam? It came with black semi rubbery solid foam tips.

- the sound guy offered to give me an in-ear mix.. but I didnt want to risk it live on stage..yet.

- so the other issue was the weight of the cable. It frequently pulled down my back and would regularly pull on the ear loop.. sometimes pulling right off! Not sure what the solution for that is.. tie it to my chair back?

I bought the upgraded cable which very marginally improved the sound.. but is heavier than the original cable.. might give the lighter cable another try..

- i’ve been using a small mixer to EQ the sound as the highs and lows are thin.. but heard a small amp adaptor might be better - will that boost the bass and fill in the treble?
The sound is definitely there.. sounds awesome when EQed.. but I would replace the mixer with a tiny amp adaptor if does the same thing…

thats all for now.. thanks in advance..
Click to expand...
The fix for the cable weight is a belt mounted headphone amp. Many companies make them (Presonus, Behringer, Art Pro). I use the Art HP-1. It connects to either a 1/4 cable or XLR. It has a switch inside for stereo or mono mode. It also has a volume knob.

I also have both the Behringer Powerplay P1 and Powerplay P2. Both work great. The P1 allows two cables to be connected for two different feeds and is much bigger. It also has an on/off button so you don't have to adjust the volume once it is set. The P2 is similar to the Art HP-1 but is turned off by the volume control. The Art HP-1 turns off when you disconnect the ear buds. This is a nice feature because you can leave the volume alone once it is set.

I agree with BGDurham, you should go all in with IEM's... full mix. As for the click, I use Songbook pro to count in the songs with a ten second count so it stops shortly after I count in the band. I then use the App (Andoid or IOS) LiveBPM to monitor the Beats Per Minute during the song. I have an old cell phone mounted beside my mounted tom. I find this easier than listening to a click, especially when the Guitarist speeds up during a solo. Also, the bass guitarist in one of the bands I am in doesn't hear very well and when he is singing he will often not listen to the drums. As a result, I have to move with his playing. It is great when the other musicians all have solid timing and also listen to the drums, but this isn't always the case with some of the musicians I play with.
 
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Stickman said:
So I tried it out on an outdoor gig at a fair yesterday - just for the click from my phone metronome app.. and immediately ran into several issues:
- the click was great for nailing the count in quickly.. but as soon as the full band kicked in it disappeared. I could have cranked it up.. but tinnitus is nobodies friend! So plan B just use them as ear plugs no click.
Click to expand...

I wonder if using a different click sample would help?

Stickman said:
- the stage mix was too loud. I thought IEMs would work as ear protection.. but not the case. They did bring the general volume down but it seemed to distort the loud vocals and make them even louder! Often..i thought my haring would get fried several times when the vocals peaked. Fortunately its okay today but not worth the risk.
Maybe the ear bud needs more foam? It came with black semi rubbery solid foam tips.
Click to expand...

Yes maybe get better tips and see how it works. Unfortunately, there's more than one size for IEMs pads that actually fit. For example, the extra tips I bought for my CCA IEMs do not fit, but they fit my Shure 215's.

Stickman said:
- the sound guy offered to give me an in-ear mix.. but I didnt want to risk it live on stage..yet.
Click to expand...

Good call!
Stickman said:
- so the other issue was the weight of the cable. It frequently pulled down my back and would regularly pull on the ear loop.. sometimes pulling right off! Not sure what the solution for that is.. tie it to my chair back?

I bought the upgraded cable which very marginally improved the sound.. but is heavier than the original cable.. might give the lighter cable another try..
Click to expand...

With my CCA's, I use the original cable, and it works great. The only time feel them coming out of my head is when I get sweaty or the cable gets caught on something. In addition, you have to be careful if you are using a backrest as well.

Stickman said:
- i’ve been using a small mixer to EQ the sound as the highs and lows are thin.. but heard a small amp adaptor might be better - will that boost the bass and fill in the treble?
The sound is definitely there.. sounds awesome when EQed.. but I would replace the mixer with a tiny amp adaptor if does the same thing…
Click to expand...

You should be able to EQ the mix that's going into you IEMs via the mixer. I have used both an old Mackie 1204 and a Yamaha MG10XU, and they both work really well for IEM mixing.
 
alparrott said:
I use Comply foam tips on my in-ears and I typically don't have any problems with bleed. You have to make sure they're the correct size; if you've got big old earholes, the medium or small size tips aren't going to seat well and you'll have sound leaking in.

if you're using a small mixer, you should be getting all the EQ you need. Now you should be working with the sound man to get exactly what you need in your send, including more bass and less treble if that's what you want.

As far as the cable, I've never had one pull on my earpieces from its own weight. You can clip it off on your shirt collar or belt loop if it continues to give you problems. I never do; I just let it hang straight down my back, no issues.
Click to expand...
get a small cable clip and problem solved.
 
Bo Eder said:
Sorry to break it to you, but that’s why custom fitted molds are so important. When I use my Ultimate Ears, I can’t hear anything unless it’s coming into the Ultimate ears. Everything outside is almost gone - this is what allows you to turn the mix down in your ears, thus saving your hearing.

Go get fitted and spend the money on real In-ear monitors.

While you’re at it, you might as well get a proper system too. I use the Sennheiser XSW wireless IEM system and you can control the volume to your ears from the pack, and you let the sound guy give you a mix of what you want to hear.

In my opinion, this is why I think people who try, and then hate IEMs are the way they are. This is something you have to do right or you get the wrong first impression. It changes everything for the better if everyone on stage is doing it. But it’s also important to know when you don’t need it too so you don’t make every show you do more complicated than it needs to be. It’s always good to be well-versed in them.
Click to expand...
I agree custom molded is the way to go but if you don't have that proper fitting to your size is crucial to prevent sound leaking and general bad audio (when the in ears are not sitting right and sound leaks you also lose a lot of the bass and mids and the highs seem to be highly emphasized).
also as was mentioned before your sound man should be able to give you a custom mix (including more lows and less highs).
also as Bo states aBOve, you need to get it right (which is not that complicated) in order to have a good experience. but from what you said I believe fit was your first problem and a bad mix your second.
 
bermuda said:
Bo is correct. It's the only way to achieve useful isolation.

As for the mix, when using a click or track, that is the most important thing in the mix. You should not expect to hear a pleasing, listenable mix - the click is everything. Maybe your drums should be equal to the click, but everything else needs to be lower so you can work with the click and keep the levels comfortable. Have some vocals, guitar, maybe keys for reference, but keep them low in your mix. I call it a 'need-to-know' mix. Basically, what you don't hear is as important as what you need to hear to play the song.

Of course when you're not using a click, feel free to make a nice, musical mix for yourself. :)
Click to expand...
I seen some people approach it this way:
One side has the click, the other has the rest. This works but it tends to have one of them too loud which will damage your hearing overtime.
The other is having both on both ears but as Bermuda stated the click is what is most important the rest is just so you know where in the song you should be. So maybe you just need a little bit of guitar and a little bit of vocals and the rest is there but more turned down. The only way you will be able to achieve a perfect mix for you is with a monitor mixer like this:



of course this allows you to individually control up to 16 sources (it is tied to a specific mixer the X32) but there are other companies that have similar offerings.
this means you can get a full mix into the unit and you can then adjust every single source until you have them perfect for you. The ultimate and pretty much what every studio is using nowadays, is that little box next to the drummer on a lot of the Drumeo and other videos such as this:



The blue box next to her floor tom.

the other maybe more annoying solution is something like this:


and the more feature filled one:

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doggyd69b said:
I seen some people approach it this way:
One side has the click, the other has the rest. This works but it tends to have one of them too loud which will damage your hearing overtime.
The other is having both on both ears but as Bermuda stated the click is what is most important the rest is just so you know where in the song you should be. So maybe you just need a little bit of guitar and a little bit of vocals and the rest is there but more turned down. The only way you will be able to achieve a perfect mix for you is with a monitor mixer like this:



of course this allows you to individually control up to 16 sources (it is tied to a specific mixer the X32) but there are other companies that have similar offerings.
this means you can get a full mix into the unit and you can then adjust every single source until you have them perfect for you. The ultimate and pretty much what every studio is using nowadays, is that little box next to the drummer on a lot of the Drumeo and other videos such as this:



The blue box next to her floor tom.

the other maybe more annoying solution is something like this:


and the more feature filled one:

Amazon One Medical

Get care and request prescriptions from an online or in-person doctor. Now offering ongoing primary care and 24/7 telehealth.
www.amazon.com www.amazon.com
Click to expand...
Many wireless mixers like the Behringer XR18 or X18 allow each individual to adjust their own monitor mix. The X18 has six AUX OUTs so in a six piece band each member can have their own mix without the need of an external box. You do need to have the third party Mixing Station app on your cell phone or tablet. I use the Behringer X18 and each of my band members adjusts their own personal mix. All sixteen combo channels are available to each member for their mix (AUX channel), but they do not have access to the PA mix (mains) or to other AUX channels.

If you need to constantly adjust the mix, I would use a tablet with Mixing Station and mount it off the hi-hat. That is what I do since I have control of the PA mix and can also adjust each of the AUX OUTs if someone is having an issue and they don't have their cell phone near where they are performing. (i.e. left the cell phone in a bag after they adjusted their mix during sound check)

As an aside, The Drums (three mic system), Bass, Guitar, Keyboards and of course vocals all go through the PA. I use the feed from the Mains (L/R channel) as my monitor mix that way when the bass guitarist, Keyboardist or lead guitarist turns up their DI box/Keyboard (yes it has happened) I can fix the mix. It is not a perfect system since the Monitor mix is not exactly like the mains (No compression, speakers have an affect on the mix etc) but it does allow me to know when things change. The best solution would be a sound engineer but that is outside our budget for many small venues.
 
Ironjim55 said:
Many wireless mixers like the Behringer XR18 or X18 allow each individual to adjust their own monitor mix. The X18 has six AUX OUTs so in a six piece band each member can have their own mix without the need of an external box. You do need to have the third party Mixing Station app on your cell phone or tablet. I use the Behringer X18 and each of my band members adjusts their own personal mix. All sixteen combo channels are available to each member for their mix (AUX channel), but they do not have access to the PA mix (mains) or to other AUX channels.

If you need to constantly adjust the mix, I would use a tablet with Mixing Station and mount it off the hi-hat. That is what I do since I have control of the PA mix and can also adjust each of the AUX OUTs if someone is having an issue and they don't have their cell phone near where they are performing. (i.e. left the cell phone in a bag after they adjusted their mix during sound check)

As an aside, The Drums (three mic system), Bass, Guitar, Keyboards and of course vocals all go through the PA. I use the feed from the Mains (L/R channel) as my monitor mix that way when the bass guitarist, Keyboardist or lead guitarist turns up their DI box/Keyboard (yes it has happened) I can fix the mix. It is not a perfect system since the Monitor mix is not exactly like the mains (No compression, speakers have an affect on the mix etc) but it does allow me to know when things change. The best solution would be a sound engineer but that is outside our budget for many small venues.
Click to expand...
A much cheaper solution than the x-32 and monitor box.

Yes I just of course would go for the controller box (and expensive ass mixer) because having buttons (for me) beats a touchscreen almost every time.
 
doggyd69b said:
A much cheaper solution than the x-32 and monitor box.

Yes I just of course would go for the controller box (and expensive ass mixer) because having buttons (for me) beats a touchscreen almost every time.
Click to expand...
The Behringer P16-M (16-Channel Digital Personal Mixer) looks great. I am personally very comfortable with the tablet based mixer but I totally understand the appeal of buttons. In addition, wireless does introduce another complexity or point of failure. I haven't had any issues with the Behringer X18 and wireless connections, but I do use an external router.

It is a bit tricky to adjust a tablet slider while playing and I am sure the P16-M would be easier to adjust. I wait until the end of a song to make any fine adjustments.

The Behringer X32 with the P16-M looks awesome but are way outside my budget. I do like the fact that you can use a tablet with it so a sound engineer can be anywhere and still do the mix, while still having the knobs and sliders on the console.

​

 
Ironjim55 said:
The Behringer P16-M (16-Channel Digital Personal Mixer) looks great. I am personally very comfortable with the tablet based mixer but I totally understand the appeal of buttons. In addition, wireless does introduce another complexity or point of failure. I haven't had any issues with the Behringer X18 and wireless connections, but I do use an external router.

It is a bit tricky to adjust a tablet slider while playing and I am sure the P16-M would be easier to adjust. I wait until the end of a song to make any fine adjustments.

The Behringer X32 with the P16-M looks awesome but are way outside my budget. I do like the fact that you can use a tablet with it so a sound engineer can be anywhere and still do the mix, while still having the knobs and sliders on the console.

​

Click to expand...
I understand other band members needing wireless, but the drummer? is not like you are going anywhere...

Yes for the only reason that fiddling with a touch screen is a little slower than turning up or down a knob..

The X-32 is also out of my budget I mean I can go and buy one but I need to be able to justify (to myself) the reason for spending that kind of $$$
but what you have is still better and simple in ears with less options so maybe in the future you will be upgrading to that??
 
doggyd69b said:
One side has the click, the other has the rest.
Click to expand...
Yep. Much easier to hear what you need to when it's separated from the other audio and doesn't have to compete so much with the other. That also helps to better manage the overall volume.
 
bermuda said:
Yep. Much easier to hear what you need to when it's separated from the other audio and doesn't have to compete so much with the other. That also helps to better manage the overall volume.
Click to expand...
As someone mentioned find a more pleasing click sample and use that, a lot of the time people use very ear piercing click samples and that is part of the problem. There are literally thousands of click samples available..
 
ottog1979 said:
The other main thing about IEM's: It's not a try it once & done thing. One gig where there's some issues is not enough. It takes a while to dial it in. But once you get it worked out for you, you'll never go back.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!

I did a little homework with my in ears trying different tips to find the most comfortable and best isolation while listening/playing along to music on my ipod. Once I had that figured out it was pretty easy to move to sending the monitor feed to me at gigs.

I have a small Rolls headphone amp with a monitor input and a second mic/line input that I use for the click (coming off of my phone) that have separate volume controls so I can set the click/monitor blend as I see fit. It has worked great for me so far, and it's so good that I'll never go back to using a monitor wedge.
 
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