No Way Jose
Silver Member
Are any forum members into avant garde music and drumming? Silver Apples is an example
but could include playing drums along with synthesizers making somewhat random sounds, or barking dogs or wind chimes.
Avant Garde
- Thread starter No Way Jose
- Start date
Push pull stroke
Platinum Member
It’s fine, I guess. Not a big audience, but it has its place.
Paul Blood
Junior Member
I immediately thought of avant-garde jazz from the 60’s. Maybe even less accessible than Silver Apples ?
I dig me some Imperial Triumphant:
No Way Jose
Silver Member
I'm wondering how to approach playing drums along with instruments that are not following a time signature or any particular rhythm.
How avant-garde is termed can be subjective to the time and place on not the music it self; whether is outside 'tradition' or intentionally alienating audiences (which is arguably true avant garde). Something like Zappa, perhaps the early Mothers stuff could be considered AG but he had an audience that respected and demand his experimentation, it's no longer counter culture. Same with many free-jazz, experimental atonal/arrhythmic....it's falling under a similar sphere but there are distinctions but to many it's just 'noise'. Even someone like Stravinsky may have been considered AG for that period of time.
This assumes the traditional notion that a drummer's 'role' is to keep time...which is a myth in itself; it's everyone's responsibility to keep time.
But in the context of 'free' playing, you have both melodic, dynamic and texture approaches at your disposal but more importantly, you have ears and foresight....and other instrument can certainly approach rhythmic roles without drums. And in particular for drummers in an improv setting, they often have conductive influence in direction...but this only really works if you have other musicians in a listening mind-space otherwise is really is just noise....that 'fine line between stupid and clever'
Sometimes it helps to focus on less sound sources. For example, a cymbal has 3 basic: bell/ride/crash....but really, a player should be able to get 100+ different sounds in a variety of contexts.
Alot of great 'free'er players come to mind: Joey Baron, Han Bennick, Eric Harland, Art Tripp, Paul Motian, Billy Martin...certainly Max Roach's concepts are important. Zach Hill is a great modern example. These are just some of my favorites. There is a lot of stuff to check out like late Coltrane, Ornette, the Sun Ra lineage to Zorn, Miles' transition eras....many others.
This assumes the traditional notion that a drummer's 'role' is to keep time...which is a myth in itself; it's everyone's responsibility to keep time.
But in the context of 'free' playing, you have both melodic, dynamic and texture approaches at your disposal but more importantly, you have ears and foresight....and other instrument can certainly approach rhythmic roles without drums. And in particular for drummers in an improv setting, they often have conductive influence in direction...but this only really works if you have other musicians in a listening mind-space otherwise is really is just noise....that 'fine line between stupid and clever'
Sometimes it helps to focus on less sound sources. For example, a cymbal has 3 basic: bell/ride/crash....but really, a player should be able to get 100+ different sounds in a variety of contexts.
Alot of great 'free'er players come to mind: Joey Baron, Han Bennick, Eric Harland, Art Tripp, Paul Motian, Billy Martin...certainly Max Roach's concepts are important. Zach Hill is a great modern example. These are just some of my favorites. There is a lot of stuff to check out like late Coltrane, Ornette, the Sun Ra lineage to Zorn, Miles' transition eras....many others.
harryconway
Platinum Member
Yes here.
Susie Ibarra, Ikue Mori, Sylvie Courvoisier for starts .......
Susie Ibarra, Ikue Mori, Sylvie Courvoisier for starts .......
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makinao
Silver Member
I was with my university’s Avant Garde ensemble back in the 70s. The leader went on to become a National Artist. It was often more fun to play than to listen to, but some of the works were truly awesome to hear. It took me past so many musical limits that when I started producing records, nothing surpised me anymore.
Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX
Local Boob
I still think John Cage is the master of avante garde
Water Walk
and 4'33 is his masterpiece b/c it is never the same 2 times in a row
Water Walk
and 4'33 is his masterpiece b/c it is never the same 2 times in a row
MntnMan62
Silver Member
You do what you "feel".
makinao
Silver Member
Whatever the work demands. I once played a work where the composer was more interested in the percussion instruments' timbre than its role as a timekeeper.
Chick Corea with Circle- Arc / Paris Concert
John Abercrombie-Animato
Gary Peacock-Voice From The Past
Jack DeJohnette-Have You Heard / Untitled / Pictures / New Rags / New Directions / Dancing With Nature Spirits
The Art Ensemble of Chicago-Urban Bushmen
Keith Jarrett Trio-Byablue / Always let me go / Changes
Pat Metheny-Song X
Gateway-Gateway 1 / In The Moment / Homecoming / Gateway 2
Dave Holland-Dream Of The Elders
Trio Beyond-Saudades
John Abercrombie-Animato
Gary Peacock-Voice From The Past
Jack DeJohnette-Have You Heard / Untitled / Pictures / New Rags / New Directions / Dancing With Nature Spirits
The Art Ensemble of Chicago-Urban Bushmen
Keith Jarrett Trio-Byablue / Always let me go / Changes
Pat Metheny-Song X
Gateway-Gateway 1 / In The Moment / Homecoming / Gateway 2
Dave Holland-Dream Of The Elders
Trio Beyond-Saudades
makinao
Silver Member
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makinao
Silver Member
From my own country, National Artist Jose Maceda was a pioneering ethnomusicologist and avant-garde composer.
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Drumming Patterns
Junior Member
Two part in depth Paul Motian interview:
Paul Motian Interview and Discography by Chuck Braman
An interview conducted with Paul Motian in the early 1990s by drummer Chuck Braman. Includes a discography of recordings related to the topics discussed.www.drummingpatterns.com
Paul Motian Interview by Chuck Braman: Recordings
An interview from the early 1990s with Paul Motian sharing his ideas regarding a selection of recordings from various points in his career.
From my first interview with Paul:
Chuck: What’s the attraction of playing free? What appeals to you about that as opposed to a different situation?
Paul: Just that it’s very open and it let’s me play whatever I want to play. If I have an idea and it makes musical sense to do it, then I can go ahead and do it, I’m not restricted in any way to bar lines or form.
Chuck: What do you latch on to, though? For example, if you’re playing time, you know how the beat’s being subdivided, you know what the vocabulary is, you know you can move this here, you can leave this out. But if you’re playing completely free, it’s a completely blank slate. What do you latch on to that’s logical to determine what you play?
Paul: You’re latching on to what you’re hearing, what the other people are playing, what you’re playing, what you started out playing, what melody is going on in your head, everything. You just latch on to whatever you can latch on to, man. And hopefully there’s plenty of things to latch on to.
Chuck: When I listen to you play free, I can tell you obviously find clear ideas to play and I can follow your thinking. But some other drummer playing in the same situation might say, “This music sounds good, but what in the world could I ever play to it?”
Paul: Well, thank god I don’t never think about that. I don’t think like that. I just let it happen. I just go by what I hear and I just let it happen.
Chuck: So you’re not self-conscious…
Paul: No. I’m acting on what I’m hearing and what I’m doing.
Chuck: You have a clear idea of what you should do and shouldn’t do.
Paul: It’s not like what I should do or shouldn’t do, it’s what I do. And I have enough faith and confidence in myself and what I do that it’s right. If I start thinking about what I should do and I shouldn’t do, it would suck. It’s like the story Jimmy Garrison told me about the centipede. He’s walking along on the branch groovin’, and then some f***** monkey looks at him and says “Hey, man, look at how you got all them legs, man, how do you know which leg to put down first?” And as soon as he says that, the mother****** trips and falls off the tree. It’s the same thing. You can’t stop to think about that s***.
Once when I was playing with Charlie Haden, I told him that I couldn’t really get with the music, I can’t find what it is that I should do, whether I should play time or I play free. And Charlie said to me, “well, you’re the one that can do it and whatever you do, you be in control, you do what you think is right, I’m going to take it from what you’re doing.” In other words, instead of me thinking about what I should do or what I shouldn’t do, I should just do, and everything will be OK. And that’s what happened. When I was thinking about what I should do and what I shouldn’t do, s*** wasn’t happening. Wasn’t happening, man. After I talked to Charlie and he said to me whatever I do is OK., and I should be in control, then I felt free to do what I wanted to do. And as soon as I did that, everything fell into place. S*** was swinging like a mother******.
Chuck: Are you switching over from your conscious mind to your subconscious mind?
Paul: Yeah, in a way. In other words, when something starts happening and I start playing time, I’m not debating in my head, “well, I should play time now or I shouldn’t play time.” I just go ahead and do what I feel I should do. And when I do that, it happens, everything falls into place. If I feel like playing a rumba beat on a f***in’ tom-tom, that’s what I do without thinking about it, it’s OK!
Chuck: So it sounds like the key is to get rid of any sort of deliberation.
Paul: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely, man. Oh yeah. Sure. As soon as you start deliberating and thinking it’s that story I just told you, man. That’s the key. Definitely.
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end Goat
Active Member
(First post, hello all!)
Just started drumming this last winter with a focus on free playing. My partner and I have been performing free improv with modular synthesizer/electronics and piano for a few years and I decided to add drums. My joke is that we discovered there's no money in noise music so we're going free jazz! Just played my first gig on drums and it went well.
The Milford Graves documentary was an enjoyable watch and I really look forward to the free jazz documentary Fire Music becoming available for streaming, as it should fill in some gaps the Ken Burns Jazz documentary left on the topic.
Is it really free "jazz" if we aren't beholden to swing? Should we be talking about Chris Corsano and Eli Keszler?
Just started drumming this last winter with a focus on free playing. My partner and I have been performing free improv with modular synthesizer/electronics and piano for a few years and I decided to add drums. My joke is that we discovered there's no money in noise music so we're going free jazz! Just played my first gig on drums and it went well.
The Milford Graves documentary was an enjoyable watch and I really look forward to the free jazz documentary Fire Music becoming available for streaming, as it should fill in some gaps the Ken Burns Jazz documentary left on the topic.
Is it really free "jazz" if we aren't beholden to swing? Should we be talking about Chris Corsano and Eli Keszler?
harryconway
Platinum Member
Welcome to Drummerworld. I've been following Etienne for a while, now. You might like ???