Category Leader

Does a "I buy used only policy" negate this or make the internet crash?
 
For example, if brand Y sold 1000 beginner sets at $500 that's $500,000. Yet if they sold 100 high dollar kits at $5000, that is also $500,000. So which is better?


Yes, the numbers certainly have a nuanced subjectivity about them. I'm guessing most CEOs would look upon total profits as the ultimate measure, though that might not always be the case.
 
I'd tend to think the top selling products were porno or gaming related items. I don't even see drums on the horizon. A drum kit isn't a category-we can't discriminate between the drum kits parts since it takes all to play "a kit" so drums vs hardware vs cymbals vs heads etc. is a useless distinction. That's what's wrong with the world now-categories.
 
I didn’t mean to toss this conversational grenade in the room and then walk away - but I’ve enjoyed the analysis and commentary.
I’m not going to have the answers dictate what I choose to buy, I just like thinking about these things. And I appreciate the ambiguity of what measure to apply. What’s the Macallan of drums? (Even if I order a Balvenie.) What’s the Glock of cymbals? (I prefer Sigs.) What’s the Titleist of heads...
 
There has to be an accurate report somewhere that ranks drum and cymbal companies along the lines of volume and profit. There isn't a stat on the planet that hasn't been compiled at this point. The world is mired in metrics.
I'm finding none. (easily available, accurate reports) What I've found so far is a lot of speculation. Opinions. And "facts" that become discredited as soon as you unearth more "facts".
 
Rather than using sales as a definition, what would your answers be if by 'leader' we say the company that is innovating most?
On that basis my personal choices would be:

Drums: DW just for the range of woods, plies, ranges etc (but I still don't own any!)
Cymbals: Zildjian (only due to recent introduction of Avedis, K Special Dry, K Sweet, FX stacks, L80 which are all very useable IMO) or Meinl (who were probably doing the dry trashy cymbal thing first and best, and continue to develop nice new products)
Heads: Hard to ignore Aquarian who seem to be introducing more new and innovative models all the time
Hardware: PDP (really! I have bought several add-on arms in recent years like X-hat, Cym arm etc that are really well thought-out)
Pedals: Hard to say. I am still playing Pearl pedals since 20 years, DW models don't seem to change much. Who's innovating in pedals? I abstain on this one.

What say you? And why?
 
First I would argue that DW is on top because "that's what the pro's use." Gretsch has a huge professional line-up and probably many more than DW of non-pros because of the price. On the Musicians Friend web page, DW offers 84 sets, Gretsch 94 sets, Pearl 198, Tama 202. Based on demand, DW is down on the list. Pedals, Many more Tama than DW. Not sure where you are getting your Category Leaders other than your favorites. This is like ranking movies by the money the first weekend. Sure todays movies gross more at $11.00 per ticket as opposed by a few years ago at $5.00. Apples and Oranges.
 
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If an asteroid was announced as impacting the earth and I was one of the drummers picked for the new Lunar Gravitational Drummers Academy - and money was no object:

Sonor
Zildjian
Remo
DW pedals/hardware
Vic Firth
Ahead
SKB
 
What a minute an asteroid is going to impact the Earth? Now all the recent events makes sense. I bet it's a giant intergalactic turd flying through space-dumped from some other planet who didn't want to pollute their planet so send it off to another. That's why they started the Space force-to stop that crap. ROFL.
 
By "lie," I don't necessarily mean maliciously misleading someone in an effort to impose significant harm for the purpose of profit, though that maneuver isn't unheard of. I'm referring more to inflating the truth or reorienting your outlook for the sake of staying afloat. Example: I knew a relatively upstanding guy who was a top seller at a Ford dealership for over ten years. During that phase, he spoke of Ford as though it was hands-down the best manufacturer of vehicles on the planet. But then came a more attractive employment offer from Toyota. Suddenly, if it didn't start with a T, it wasn't worth taking for a test drive. Ford was forgotten like a failed experiment.

Many sales jobs are commission-based. You aren't around very long if you don't generate it. Making adjustments to reality is a survival technique. I've encountered questionable tactics at every level of sales -- retail, real estate, investing, lending, gym memberships, and the list could go on for an entire page. Regardless, I'm not trying to stigmatize salespeople. Many are doing their best to earn honest livings. They should be commended for that.

That's a very long explanation - perhaps its wiser to curb comments that require paragraphs to explain intent. joking ;-)

No harm, no foul...it's just a day job and by no means how I identify myself - but it's tiresome to constantly see "lies" hinged to "sales" when we live in a world where every product one touches has been sold to either an individual or a company at some point. Pearl and Zildjian and Remo all have sales teams as an example... in fact I recently debated joining a company I won't name in a sales position....but I never, ever want to mix those two worlds.

To your point I've been in that situation - switching brands - and what I found to be true was that I sold a competitive product...it was less "Oh X product is better is every way" but more "Oh now I understand why X product IS different and better in Y way and now that I know that I can promote X product to people if they are looking for Y reason to purchase X product." That could be a personality trait though...because I always acknowledged the previous company unlike you friend. In fact I distinctly remember being in a training and having an argument with a trainer because the product I used to sell already literally did what their "new and great" product does haha.

One thing that's important to mention is that what I "sell" are highly complex technical products to government agencies and utilities that can run in the hundreds of thousands ...so it's not like pens where the difference might honestly be negligible. Most of us at this level of sales don't really see it as "sales" but literally offering solutions to very complex problems that our instrumentation can provide. So I have a vastly different experience. To your point - I just bought that car and that guy was the worst sales person I'd ever met - pairing that with the fact that I was incredibly over researched on the vehicle of my choice - which I bet you are exactly the same way haha - it was a silly experience.

Anyways - I actually would be interested to see the market data for all the manufacturers just as an exercise. The one thing I do know is that our entire industry's market cap is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else. We are a niche bunch of consumers with our little drums and cymbals and sticks, etc. :)
 
Please. Let’s all remember that every other drum company on the planet changed their designs for everything after Tama shipped that first SuperStar kit to Cobham in 1977. Some follow, Tama leads.

Please continue.
 
Generally very small companies innovate and the well known brands follow - just saying....

Luckily, pretty much all contemporary drums I've played are very good. I have played all over the world the last 6 years and we have to rent drums in these locations. So I get to try different brands in critical situations. Likewise cymbals. I can't think of a well known brand that doesn't make a cymbal that would sound great in any genre. The proof of that is the amount of world class drummers playing different brands in a wide variety of different genres. In the end I tend to go with brands that I connect with philosophically.
What is the goal of determining a 'category leader' and how do you define it - performance/quality, or sales?
I think in some gear categories where there are few competitors it's slightly easier to determine a category leader - orchestral samples, or true analogue synths perhaps. But when multiple well know drum companies make professional quality drums of all types and all sizes, and a huge variety fo cymbals, it's much harder to differentiate between them - other than company philosophy (artisan, American made, (choose your country) made, Eco credentials, fair pay and equal rights policies).
 
there is a higher-than-you-might-think amount of sales people that just don't know WHAT they are talking about
This is highly common in my business. I have lost count of the number of salespeople that come through my shop that know nothing about the items they sell. When I have forgotten more about a subject than the salesperson even knows, how do you expect me to buy anything from you?
 
Please. Let’s all remember that every other drum company on the planet changed their designs for everything after Tama shipped that first SuperStar kit to Cobham in 1977. Some follow, Tama leads.

Please continue.

I'm curious - I never think of Tama as particularly innovative. What have they contributed? I genuinely don't know much about their drums or hardware. Their new hand painted swirls, etc. are beautiful though.
 
(As I look at my roadster and pay homage)
Innovative is what Pearl is and does.
Aside from their 2000 line hardware which is unmatched, they compete with Gibraltar (specialist) in hardware systems such as racks and combo or hybrid rack solutions.
They compete with Trick and Axis (specialist/boutique) in pedals, DW and Tama are not up to speed yet.

Their Reference, Maple reserves are superb and competitive to other high end. Oh and custom/boutique, what can the others do that Masterworks can’t do?
Their budget and value kits are competitive as well as their mid tier. Who can we say better than Pearl has a hand this deep in each value tier?

I mean they have their own line of Latin percussion instruments!

Their snares up and down the value tiers have always been top notch and choice -
Their Philharmonic and concert snares are to die for. They also own Adams percussion who concert and philharmonic instrumentalists know about.

Their marching gear is over (wrestling term) - maybe Yamaha gives them a run? And they can make their own hardware for marchers and continue to do so with leading edge innovation.

From beginning drummers education kits to concert accessories/hardware to pro touring rack systems shells and gear who does it better than Pearl?
 
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I'm telling you I'm King. I found the fountain of youth and I've lived to see all kinds of crap go down-this is nothing nowadays. So anyways as a King and also a Scientist I think that pretty much trumps all of your opinions and my word is final. I'm not a climate scientist so have no oracle powers but still 99.999% of scientist agree with other scientist LOL. I say the best is what is at hand-cause it's what you have which must be the best you can do. Come on you can't argue with that logic. See being King and living so long I've grown to be a wise guy. For me it must be Pearl and SONOR, Zildjian/Dream, different stick makers..... ho hum it's the best. I'm glad I cleared it all up. You don't even appreciate the best when you are looking at it-so my point further made you folks are clueless ROFL!!!!
 
(As I look at my roadster and pay homage)
Innovative is what Pearl is and does.
Aside from their 2000 line hardware which is unmatched, they compete with Gibraltar (specialist) in hardware systems such as racks and combo or hybrid rack solutions.
They compete with Trick and Axis (specialist/boutique) in pedals, DW and Tama are not up to speed yet.

Their Reference, Maple reserves are superb and competitive to other high end. Oh and custom/boutique, what can the others do that Masterworks can’t do?
Their budget and value kits are competitive as well as their mid tier. Who can we say better than Pearl has a hand this deep in each value tier?

I mean they have their own line of Latin percussion instruments!

Their snares up and down the value tiers have always been top notch and choice - besides Supra’s and Acrolites Pearl’s are often named.
Their Philharmonic and concert snares are to die for. They also own Adams percussion who concert and philharmonic instrumentalists know about.

Their marching gear is over (wrestling term) - maybe Yamaha gives them a run? And they can make their own a hardware for marchers and continue to do so with leading edge innovation.

I mean from beginning drummers education kits to concert accessories/hardware to pro touring rack systems shells and gear who does it better than Pearl?

Splendid enumeration of Pearl's multiple virtues, Ransan. You know I require no convincing on those points. Unfortunately, the brand's image will always be plagued by the following association: Some players see the Pearl logo, think "Export," and run like hell. The irony is that the bestselling kit of all time -- which is, as you know, a very solid, roadworthy rig -- has an image from which many drummers wish to distance themselves. It isn't rational, but few public sentiments are grounded in logic.
 
They all make good drums. The Pearl rack was definitely a major innovation.
No one was doing ISO mounts before RIMS. I went around the big brands looking for a kit with ISO mounts and was turned away, which is why I ended up with N&C. A few years later, everyone was offering their own iso mount system.
None of the big brands were making single ply shells, not even in snare drums.
N&C pioneered the nodal mounts, and looked again at tube lugs. All the major drum brands had chunky lugs top and bottom on the shell too. A couple of years later, big brands were offering tube lugs.
 
I'm curious - I never think of Tama as particularly innovative. What have they contributed? I genuinely don't know much about their drums or hardware. Their new hand painted swirls, etc. are beautiful though.
Tama's R/D shot out the Air Ride snare, a snare mounted upon RIMs style - those were interesting.


By the way Nick, is that your idea of signing off with a rig/gear rundown like the vintage overseers have in their arenas? - if so I like it.
 
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