Pollyanna
Platinum Member
Ive taken a deep breath and relaxed. I just dont agree with your points.
There's fact, logic and physiology. Which part don't you agree with?
Ive taken a deep breath and relaxed. I just dont agree with your points.
Is drumming just hitting things with sticks? Is composition is just putting a bunch of notes together?
Ekim, sure, "chops" wasn't the right word. Just short hand. If you require more precise terms I was referring to technical facility and agility ... things that require high levels of physical coordination. It's territory that suits guys more than gals.
There is a lot of jealousy out there because of her commercial success - the "Not fair! I'm better than her! I deserve it more than her!" attitude.
Meg receives "ballooned respect"? LOL She must be the most dissed professional drummer in the world - maybe in living memory.
And who are the people who dis her? Men. (eg. "barely adequate"). I have not seen any instance of a woman dissing Meg.
Ekim, I couldn't give a rat's posterior about her "adequacy". I totally don't care how she may or may not perform out of the WS. What matters to me is that I really enjoy some WS songs, and that includes Meg's contribution.
I don't want to be impressed by a band or a drummer - I want to be pleasured, challenged, amused, thrilled, fascinated, chilled, etc. The WS have given me pleasure so I feel positively about Meg's drumming ... and I feel more positive about her drumming than that of drummers with greater facility who play music that is more designed to impress than speak to a listener.
Yes, to both. It's all in the arrangement in both too.
Probably, but the presence of amazing female piano and classical players shows that it's certainly not just a man's world to master an instrument. I think far more than any physicality factor, it's a matter of focus. Most amazing musicians sacrifice years of their lives to get there. Most of us, men or women, simply aren't putting in that kind of time.
Ekim said:I've yet to see an amazing female drummer in the technique world. Some of those listed here are really good drummers, but I wouldn't even consider putting them in the same league as Dennis Chambers or Vinnie.
Ekim said:You must not be paying attention to the hundreds of guy professional drummers that get ragged on in a similar fashion by those same guys. It's not a sex thing, it's a competency thing.
Ekim said:Would anyone besides her brother have ever thought of hiring her? Probably not. And she gets media and endorsement attention. So on top of being "barely adequate", she gets extra attention for being female. That's grating.
Ekim said:And I really doubt you'd stand up for any male drummer with similar skills being challenged like this. But let a female be attacked and the wagons get circled.
Funny, I think you're actually more sexist than I am. I give female players their proper respect. Your posts seem to imply "it's too hard for women to do well on the drums because it's a man's world".
More deep breaths needed, Ekim.
Drums require more gross motor skills than piano etc. Agree, re: focus and dedication. But can you imagine a woman playing like Aaron Spears?
Bit confusing. Why are you talking about the top men being much than the top women on drums? Are you saying it's a lack of dedication or intrinsic?
This is the statement of yours that started this little debate. I agree with the content but you never qualified it by noting that male coordination and, especially, the sheers numbers of men in drumming are the reason behind it - plus the fact that standards have been set by men.
It felt to me that you were saying "guys have got it and women don't". That struck me as an unfair angle. Women bring different qualities to the table. It's not entirely tangible but I've not heard a male drummer play like Meg or Moe and I've not heard a female drummer play like Aaron or Ron Bruner.
Sure, no one's going to rag on Terri Lynne Carrington, but NO ONE gets ragged as much as Meg. Not even Ringo or Travis.
Actually, Jack's her ex.
I doubt anyone else of Jack's stature would have hired her - but what a masterstroke! He was interested in minimalism and he used Meg's limitations to great effect - the organic drum machine. She is part of a group that many people find extremely enjoyable so she's gotta be doing something right!
Hey, I can do more things on drums than Meg and I'm not as cute as her. But her success doesn't grate me at all. She's a better White Stripe than I'd ever be.
Nope. If I had anything against men would I be a regular here? I have also gone in to bat for Ringo a number of times, although in Ringo's case there are more people coming to his defence. I love Ringo. Wanna take back the "sexist" jibe now?
What about all the other qualities that make an effective drummer, a drummer who "does well"? Drummers like Meg and Moe (and Ringo and Charlie, for that matter) are limited but what they have done in their respective bands is highly effective - far from "barely adequate" IMO
This thread is silly. Women in percussion generally tend to shy away from the drumset. In my experience with many women percussionists it has nothing to do with being femanine or not physically being able to play the instrument. I've know some excellent women set players. It has to do with stability. Women don't look for a life of instability. The main outlet for playing the drumset is in bands that play gigs in bars and casual gigs. Women focus more on stability and being able to set up a household and career. There are monster female players in professional orchestras as well as teaching in universities and schools. Most women take this route. As for playing with light touch and sensitivity, check out any monster player and you'll find that. The orchestral, and marimba world is full of them. It's called being a musician.
This statement really isn't directed to women who play the drums as opposed to another instrument. It's a fact that playing professionally isn't the most stable career, and you can pretty much forget about trying to raise a family at the same time. Many men will tell you the same thing. But women guitarists are in the same boat. I think women in general are just intimidated by the drumset. It's big and loud; it looks complicated and sounds masculine and there just aren't that many female role models. I hope this is changing but we've got a long way to go!
I agree, Malti. It's seen as a guy thing. Yet I know there are a number of women who would like to play.
When I was younger I had heaps of women tell me after a gig - "I wish I could play drums!". I think they worried about being judged. As with guys and ballet, it's not the "done thing" ...
Yeh, I used to worry about being judged in almost everything I did, not just music. This is a predominantly female phenomenon. It took me a long time to get over that (well, ALMOST over it). Now, I pretty much don't care. If I hadn't come as far as I have I would have never taken up the drums that's for certain. I do take issue with the women that say "Gee, I wish I could play drums". In fact, I take issue with anyone who says "I wish I could....(fill in the blank)." If there is something you really want to do you will find a way to make it happen. I have a low tolerance those who make excuses for not going after what they want.
Hey there, us guys have to adhere to the same consensus rules to be accepted as "good." Even I think I'm a shitty drummer because I can't do super fast rolls and refuse to do long sweeping fills. I even hate drum solos! But I'm not about to change my style just so other people think I'm "good." When people ask if I play drums I usually say, "Kinda," or ,"Yeah, but I really, really suck ass at it."Men have long dissed women for being unathletic and naive in "matters that matter" unless we copy the macho dynamism'n'speed approach and do it well (a la Terri-Lynne and Cindy). Women are still to establish our own drumming "voice" IMO.
But men and women are very, very different. They have different tastes, different styles, etc. For example, I know a lot of guys who dig QofSA, but every chick I know hates them (including my wife), except my buddy's sister. I don't know any women who are impressed by Dave Grohl, but he blows my mind. On the other hand, I've seen some women impressed by drum parts that made me say, "Really? Hell, even I can do THAT!" It's safe to guess that a female drummer impressed by that part I considered plain would probably be influenced heavily by that part causing me to think she "sucks."...but the generalizations and the palpable need for you to separate men and women into two classes of musician has rubbed me the wrong way.
She has stood up for Ginger Baker many a time on this forum. Yes, Drummer World Public Enemy #1.And I really doubt you'd stand up for any male drummer with similar skills being challenged like this. But let a female be attacked and the wagons get circled.
I think women in general are just intimidated by the drumset. It's big and loud; it looks complicated and sounds masculine and there just aren't that many female role models. I hope this is changing but we've got a long way to go!
And afterwards we're going to get pedicures then shopping Hee hee!wow! i've just seen something i've never seen on this forum. two female drummers discussing drumming among themselves. that almost never happens!