Are Jazz Drummers Overrated?

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LOL lots going on here.

Polly, I have watched all of the Max vids that are on you tube. Anyone that has any clue about the drums can see from the vids that Max had it together.

Bob, the kid didn't say Max didn't have it together. He just reckoned the metal guys were better. I agree with theindian.


It's always the person with one post who comes in, says something to piss off a bunch of people, then leaves, never to comeback.

But what would you do if you were a kid who had a little "brainwave" and decided to run it past some people in the know? And you got a reaction like that - being called a troll and all the rest?

If it was me, I'd think "WTF, these people are insane," and move on.

Or he might have posted it and gone on his merry way, and figured he might log on and have a look in a day or two. That would be the funniest scenario. Imagine the look on his face to see this mess LOL

There is the logical response to his question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRjQzSwmEHw

... or this: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46195

... or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFvgCtomkqE

etc.
 
Polly I think we need to cut to the chase past all this politically correct crap on this one in particular......

Sometimes you just have to trust your senses and your gut intuition to see clearly what is going on.... I think more than a few can see that on the wonderful world of the internet and nameless identities and hidden agendas and motives and such in many cases what we are seeing here in this case. Most newbie's in their right mind would not start their way here on purpose in their very first post to start a full blown fire.....think about it. The original poster is more than welcome to chime in to correct us on it if we are wrong then we could have a reasonable discussion on it I believe.

More than a few of us can see the highly inflammatory and highly negative nature in the original post. The title of the thread alone even before reading the content is already enough to set in motion a "reaction" from the jazz playing members in my view. There was not one single positive thing offered to debate since the tone was set into motion with a can of gas to first start the fire fully burning in my view with the intent to cause friction and a division amongst the various members like Bob said and me which I stated just before his related post on the same subject and Matt wisely {in my view} right from the very start.

We may be all wrong but the content of the first post just doesn't feel quite right to me...like I say he is more than welcome to correct me and other members here take on it if we're all wrong about his intent.
 
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Weird. I couldn't log on, tried to reset my password, did everything, but to no avail. So now I'm someone else, I guess, back to being a junior member. Anyway, I'm just trying this to see what happens.

Edit: it works! Okay. Note to mods: can I just be con struct again?

Well, since you have only a couple of posts, why don't you start some inflammatory threads with your new profile. I don't think anyone will recognize you with that name or avatar pic. :D
 
Polly I think we need to cut to the chase past all this politically correct crap on this one in particular......

Sometimes you just have to trust your senses and your gut intuition to see clearly what is going on.... I think more than a few can see that on the wonderful world of the internet and nameless identities and hidden agendas and motives and such in many cases. Most newbie's in their right mind would not start their way here on purpose in their very first post to start a full blown fire.....think about it. The original poster is more than welcome to chime in to correct us on it if we are wrong then we could have a reasonable discussion on it I believe.

More than a few of us can see the highly inflammatory and highly negative nature in the original post. The title of the thread alone even before reading the content is already enough to set in motion a "reaction" from the jazz playing members in my view. There was not one single positive thing offered to debate since the tone was set into motion with a can of gas to first start the fire fully burning in my view with the intent to cause friction amongst the various members like Bob said and me which I stated just before his related post on the same subject and Matt wisely {in my view} right from the very start.

We may be all wrong but the content of the first post just doesn't feel quite right to me...like I say he can correct me and other members here if we're wrong about his intent.

Stan, if you think I'm politically correct then you don't know me very well ... even a bit ... at all ...

There was obviously a challenge in the OP, but I've met plenty of young drummers who thought the way this guy did. I thought that way up to age 17 myself - as far as I was concerned Ian Paice was IT. Jazz? Pah? Booooring! I think it was sincere, just expressed with standard young male sledgehammer diplomacy.

What turned my attitude around? Exposure and experience. My sister dated a jazz drummer at around the same time as I started getting into MO and King Crimson and my eyes opened to a whole new world. Then she dated an even better jazz player (in case you're wondering, she only dated two jazzers) and I saw him play heaps of times, and at that time I started seeing other jazz gigs.

Besides, what's more interesting for people who would come across this thread? "Go away troll!" or some cool jazz links?
 
Stan, if you think I'm politically correct then you don't know me very well ... even a bit ... at all ...

There was obviously a challenge in the OP, but I've met plenty of young drummers who thought the way this guy did. I thought that way up to age 17 myself - as far as I was concerned Ian Paice was IT. Jazz? Pah? Booooring! I think it was sincere, just expressed with standard young male sledgehammer diplomacy.

What turned my attitude around? Exposure and experience. My sister dated a jazz drummer at around the same time as I started getting into MO and King Crimson and my eyes opened to a whole new world. Then she dated an even better jazz player (in case you're wondering, she only dated two jazzers) and I saw him play heaps of times, and at that time I started seeing other jazz gigs.

Besides, what's more interesting for people who would come across this thread? "Go away troll!" or some cool jazz links?

Understood Polly {and your track record} but I still stand by my gut feeling that something is just not quite right about the original content on this one.....just me.
 
Understood Polly {and your track record}

Hehehe ... now we're on the same page ...

Stan, in my experience the least dramatic and interesting possibility is usually most likely. You know ... is it a stomach bug or bowel cancer?

I don't don't think it matters much whether he's sincere or not, anyway. We have a thread with "jazz" in the title and the chance to carry on for 217 pages. What more can we ask for? :)
 
Bob, the way I see it, if he's been lurking for a long time then he probably would like to be part of the DW community. It wouldn't make much sense to make your first post one that guarantees hostility.

Some people might be weird enough to do it, sure, but I didn't get that vibe from his OP. He just sounded like he's inexperienced with this side of music.

PS. I can't view the Max vid because my browser blocks it.

I agree Polly. Maybe he hasn't posted again because of the responses. I think that the reaction that this thread has gotten may have scared him off from making another post. I know if I made a first post that got this kind of reaction I probably wouldn't have posted again either. We do have to look at the perspective that somebody making their first post is very likely not to be familiar with the history of other threads on the forum. I really wish that he would post again just to get an idea of whether or not he took the advice of some of the members to heart, or if it was simply a thing of 'this is how I feel and I'm just looking for people to agree with me'.
 
Some jazz songs are as fast as 400 bpm. No metal song has ever been that fast. Therefore jazz must be a superior style of music. Case closed.

This one wins. Well done, Wavelength, for settling this debate once and for all!
 
I agree Polly. Maybe he hasn't posted again because of the responses. I think that the reaction that this thread has gotten may have scared him off from making another post. I know if I made a first post that got this kind of reaction I probably wouldn't have posted again either. We do have to look at the perspective that somebody making their first post is very likely not to be familiar with the history of other threads on the forum. I really wish that he would post again just to get an idea of whether or not he took the advice of some of the members to heart, or if it was simply a thing of 'this is how I feel and I'm just looking for people to agree with me'.

Michael, I just checked Alan's profile and he hasn't logged back in since making the post - was it a bit of quit-hit trolling or is he going to come back and go WTF??

It cracks me up to think of the latter ... there could be a sitcom in this, like The Big Bang Theory but instead of 4 geeks there'd be 4 jazz musicians. Or maybe it could be more like The Young Ones and have guest band appearances each episode? It could be called The Swing Kings :)

Scotch on the rocks for me, thx.
 
Dynamics are one thing that some metal drummers have but a lot don't, too many rely on massive racks of toms to create variation and struggle to do a lot with a limited kit, quite often metal drumming comes down to speed and only speed.

A metal drummer who posses a lot of great jazz qualities of Sean Reinert,

watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP-LbS7XEs0

Two words that really sum that up, finesse and creativity, notice the distinct lack of blasting.
 
I think these threads are great! A lot of feelings getting outed and a lot of discussion getting done. I bet it was Bernard posting under under a fake account to stir things up! If it isn't(most likely), then maybe the 20 year old kid should listen to Jazz-metall like Panzerballet and then gradually make the transition.

I remember when I started to listen to jazz at around 14. All my friends would laugh at me and call me old/boring. I'm glad I stuck with it, since I'm getting a lot out of it now.
In drumming-terms, according to Steve Smith, jazz is one of the best styles to learn first. The basics teaches you not only swing, dynamics and technique, but also gives you coordination. If I was a drum-teacher, I would teach like that, making a good foundation. But I digress.

Anyone else think the trio sound is better or worse with upright bass? A friend of mine says that the upright bass is too percussive and drowns out the drums/takes it's place.
 
That might be the case, and Sean Reinert is definitely a great drummer, but this has nothing to do with jazz whatsoever. Polyrhythmic playing and having some dynamics is not the same as jazz, really. I'm not saying that every jazz drummer should sound like Max Roach, but the key factor in jazz is improvisation within a certain dynamic range, together with a ery specific type of sound and interpretation of what guides a beat (you might call that swing :p).

I actually understand where the OP is coming from - if you're not really into jazz drumming, especially when you're not an experienced drummer. Playing with swing, comping, fitting into the sound, that's something you really have to learn to appreciate. It doesn't sound very flashy at first, but be mindful, it ís very hard and without it, the music would suck. Moreover, playing jazz fills is hard in more ways than just tempo. Take Jeff Hamilton for instance, there's nothing here which I could not play in terms of technical capabilities. Would it sound as good? Not by a longshot.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jeffhamiltontunisia.html

Also, there's more than single strokes. This is hard.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jeffhamiltonclayton1.html
 
I think these threads are great! A lot of feelings getting outed and a lot of discussion getting done. I bet it was Bernard posting under under a fake account to stir things up! If it isn't(most likely), then maybe the 20 year old kid should listen to Jazz-metall like Panzerballet and then gradually make the transition.

I remember when I started to listen to jazz at around 14. All my friends would laugh at me and call me old/boring. I'm glad I stuck with it, since I'm getting a lot out of it now.
In drumming-terms, according to Steve Smith, jazz is one of the best styles to learn first. The basics teaches you not only swing, dynamics and technique, but also gives you coordination. If I was a drum-teacher, I would teach like that, making a good foundation. But I digress.

Anyone else think the trio sound is better or worse with upright bass? A friend of mine says that the upright bass is too percussive and drowns out the drums/takes it's place.

It's ALWAYS better :) If you're a good drummer, you seek the interplay with that percussive sound. The double bass dictates the swing together with your ride and hihat, so in that sense it does partially take the place of the drums. That's all there is in a trio - bassdrum and snare are for support and complementing patterns respectively.
 
One more because things are getting silly again......

That quoted thread comment is pretty accurate response directed i'm sure at those who didn't know the insides of these type of language and dialogue at hand after a very negative comment was given I suspect. One man's disconnected noise is anothers complete musical nirvana...same could be said of some metal out there to some listeners. Get the point i'm making on perspective and the listening process?

Really depends what your ears and experience and knowledge base are "tuned" into. No snobery intended since that card's always the easy way out of taking a closer look at someones counter point of view deeper into their form of musical expression they play for keeps with honesty and intent which may be right out of your personal taste and comfort zone at that moment in time..... which can change over time believe me. This coming from a long time jazz veteran who dissed to the bone in his early teens the very music {drummers included} later he loves and plays with a complete passion professionally. Funny how things change over time isn't it with how your ears change when learning to develope a OPEN mind to all musical possibilities at hand to you as you musically mature the more you experience. Just offering something to ponder........

Sorry I'm getting back to this so late, but I was out all night checking out an Irish rock group and drinking Guinness :)

You make an excellent point Stan. The snobbery card is the easy way out and it's a lot easier to throw that out there than to really take a closer look at things. For example, when I was younger I couldn't really tell any difference from one Irish folk band to the next. Then when I was around 20 I saw a band at a pub that was really great and inspired me to really dig into Irish folk music. I can understand how an Irish musician would get annoyed if I told him 'your music sounds just like so-and-so', when if I took a closer listen, I would realize it really doesn't. The more you listen to a type of music, the more easily you can identify the differences from one thing to the next. About a year and a half ago I picked up the bodhran, just for kicks. I'm hardly any good at it, but I love playing anyway, and a lot of the guys I've met who play bodhran have been very nice with offering advice. Point being, I can now hear differences a lot more clearly from one band to the next as opposed to when I was 20 or younger.

BTW don't we have a guy that comes around here that's a Neil Peart worshipper, and flames anybody who doesn't think that Peart isn't the be all and end all of drumming? I never hear the snob accusation there. Betcha if instead of Peart it was Max Roach or Buddy Rich that snob card would have been thrown out there like a bolt of lightning.
 
Michael, I just checked Alan's profile and he hasn't logged back in since making the post - was it a bit of quit-hit trolling or is he going to come back and go WTF??

It cracks me up to think of the latter ... there could be a sitcom in this, like The Big Bang Theory but instead of 4 geeks there'd be 4 jazz musicians. Or maybe it could be more like The Young Ones and have guest band appearances each episode? It could be called The Swing Kings :)

Scotch on the rocks for me, thx.

LOL. Yeah Polly, if the latter did happen, I really wish I could have seen the look on his face when he saw the response.

I'll have a Guinness, but I'll have to take you up on it tomorrow. I've already raised that company's stock a few points tonight ;)
 
I play a lot of jazz and one the hardest things about jazz drumming is accents. You're not just repeating the same beat over and over, you're adding subtle variation in the intensity of strokes to fit the feel of the music. You're doing more then just creating a drum beat, you're building a mood and giving off personality with your playing, the good drummers are not the ones that play clinically and precise, they are the ones who leave their own impression on the music.

On the case of poly-rhythms, most modern free jazz drumming is very poly rhythmic, you basically need to adopt a pulse in your head like an innate metronome and go wild around it, improvising and getting new sounds out of the instrument. I know from playing with a few jazz musicians you really need to get used to doing quick chord changes and playing in time in different tempos.


That might be the case, and Sean Reinert is definitely a great drummer, but this has nothing to do with jazz whatsoever. Polyrhythmic playing and having some dynamics is not the same as jazz, really. I'm not saying that every jazz drummer should sound like Max Roach, but the key factor in jazz is improvisation within a certain dynamic range, together with a ery specific type of sound and interpretation of what guides a beat (you might call that swing :p).

I actually understand where the OP is coming from - if you're not really into jazz drumming, especially when you're not an experienced drummer. Playing with swing, comping, fitting into the sound, that's something you really have to learn to appreciate. It doesn't sound very flashy at first, but be mindful, it ís very hard and without it, the music would suck. Moreover, playing jazz fills is hard in more ways than just tempo. Take Jeff Hamilton for instance, there's nothing here which I could not play in terms of technical capabilities. Would it sound as good? Not by a longshot.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jeffhamiltontunisia.html

Also, there's more than single strokes. This is hard.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jeffhamiltonclayton1.html
 
The original poster still has one (1) post and the "jazz snob" card has already been played. And the funny thing is, there isn't any true jazz snobs on this thread.

I can't speak french at all, don't know a single word. So if I go to a french literature forum and tell them how one of their greatest poets doesn't know how to write do I get this much attention? But even that isn't analogous since I at least know something about the cultural history of france and how to have dialogues.
 
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