Triger to midi delay vs Microphones lack of delay

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
I often record using a Roland TD-10 electronic drum set for kick, snare and toms, with microphones on real cymbals. This is much cheaper and easier than buying and setting up microphones for the full drum set, and spending hours getting drum tones.

The issue is latency between the when a pad is struck, and the sound going through the TD-10 in into Protools. The issue is not latency with in the computer or Protools itself.

I set up a test example, here is one Roland pad, with an SM57 to pick up the sound of the stick hitting the pad. All routed to the same 002R
Roland_pad.jpg



I've set Protools to record the audio from the SM75, the audio coming out of the TD-10, and the midi coming out of the TD-10.

When I hit the pad, it first appears both audio sources and the midi all record at the same time
Screen shot:
Screen_shot_one.jpg


But when looking at the hits in closer detail, it becomes very apparent that the sound from the mic is picked up by Protools much quicker than the audio from the TD-10 or the midi, causing the audio of the TD-10 to be behind where I actually strike the drum pad.
Screen shot:
Screen-shot_two.jpg


I've repeated this test at both maximum and minimum buffer sizes in Protools, with the same results.

I've repeated this test with several different Roland and Pintech pads with the same results

I've done many recordings in the past using this set up, without many issues. It suddenly became an issue when I upgraded to Protools 8.0 (now running 8.1).

It appears as if the trigger to midi in the TD-10 is slower than a microphone hooked up to Protools.

My guesses are:
1) The TD-10 is getting old, or is just plain outdated.

2) This problem has always been there, but the faster speed of Protools 8.1 processes the microphone audio so quickly that the difference are becoming more apparent than when I used Protools 7.0

3) This problem has always been there, I'm just now noticing how bad it is.

Model Identifier: MacPro4,1
Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 2.26 GHz
Number Of Processors: 2
Total Number Of Cores: 8
Memory: 6 GB

Running leopard (have not upgraded to snow leopard).

Using an 002R, purchased new 4 years ago.

Any comments, solutions, or ideas are welcome.

I do realize I can just move the TD-10 audio to line up with the microphone, but it's a pain in the rear to do this every single time.
Especially when trying to determine if the track has the right feel.

Thank you.
 
It's all well and good to do things by the numbers and compare waveforms... but can you actually hear it flamming? If not, I wouldn't worry about it.

However, the TD-10 itself is fairly outdated, and the TDW-1 upgrade from about 8 years ago makes it only somewhat outdated. (I still have mine though...)

Again, if you can't hear the difference, it doesn't really matter. I've recorded mine with live cymbals and it sounded and felt just right to me.

Bermuda
 
It's all well and good to do things by the numbers and compare waveforms... but can you actually hear it flamming? If not, I wouldn't worry about it.

However, the TD-10 itself is fairly outdated, and the TDW-1 upgrade from about 8 years ago makes it only somewhat outdated. (I still have mine though...)

Again, if you can't hear the difference, it doesn't really matter. I've recorded mine with live cymbals and it sounded and felt just right to me.

Bermuda

It is very, very noticeable, as Thaard, Polly and a few others can attest.

You can clearly hear the stick strike the pads in the cymbals overheads before you hear the drum sounds. Which also throws off the entire groove, because the kick, snare and toms are behind the cymbals.
 
Don't forget the speed of sound. This won't solve the problem but it's worth bearing in mind:

The closer the mic is to the source, the sooner the sound will be picked up. Therefore, there will be a greater discrepancy (flam) when you close the microphone in on the source.
 
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Don't forget the speed of sound. This won't solve the problem but it's worth bearing in mind:

The closer the mic is to the source, the sooner the sound will be picked up. Therefore, there will be a greater discrepancy (flam) when you close the microphone in on the source.

True.

But the results are similar with the mic right on the pad, and with the mic several feet above the pad.

I know there will be some delay. Trigger to midi is a longer chain, so of course there will be some delay in timing.

I'm just trying to figure out why it's gone from barely noticeable to very noticeable using the same TD-10 and the same Protools 002R interface.

Although I'm slowly reaching the conclusion, it's always been there, and for whatever reason, my ear is picking up on it more now than it used to.
 
Don't forget the speed of sound. This won't solve the problem but it's worth bearing in mind:

The closer the mic is to the source, the sooner the sound will be picked up. Therefore, there will be a greater discrepancy (flam) when you close the microphone in on the source.

considering that electricity moves a lot faster than sound (it's actually instantaneous, because electrons move like ball bearings in a tube) then i think the speed of sound should have the opposite effect.
 
considering that electricity moves a lot faster than sound (it's actually instantaneous, because electrons move like ball bearings in a tube) then i think the speed of sound should have the opposite effect.

signal processing is not instant though. the computer in the trigger module has to process the signal from the pad and generate a sound.
 
It is very, very noticeable, as Thaard, Polly and a few others can attest.

You can clearly hear the stick strike the pads in the cymbals overheads before you hear the drum sounds. Which also throws off the entire groove, because the kick, snare and toms are behind the cymbals.

Now that I look at the wav a little closer, it appears to be 5/100 sec, which is detectable if comparing two identical, staccato sounds... but I don't see it as a problem in real life with cymbals and drums that possess various attacks, timbres and decay.

I'm not saying it's not there, I'm just failing to see that it's an issue. I've recorded my TDW-1 (upgraded TD-10) alone and with live cymbals, and I haven't detected any flamming or delay in audio from what I'm playing. Of course it's possible that the upgrade took care of those issues.

Good luck,

Bermuda
 
Now that I look at the wav a little closer, it appears to be 5/100 sec, which is detectable if comparing two identical, staccato sounds... but I don't see it as a problem in real life with cymbals and drums that possess various attacks, timbres and decay.

I'm not saying it's not there, I'm just failing to see that it's an issue. I've recorded my TDW-1 (upgraded TD-10) alone and with live cymbals, and I haven't detected any flamming or delay in audio from what I'm playing. Of course it's possible that the upgrade took care of those issues.

Good luck,

Bermuda

It's a tad over .005 a second delay, almost, but not quite .010 seconds.

I'd done several recordings in the past and this hasn't been an issue.

But when I did something last week, it was very, very noticeable, not just to myself, but to several others who heard it.
 
signal processing is not instant though. the computer in the trigger module has to process the signal from the pad and generate a sound.

Well exactly. I was just saying that speed of sound isn't really the issue here. I think your most likely problem is the TD-10. You've clearly got a very good computer setup going here which is evedent by the speed of the recording of the microphones. Hell i mean even my old plonker of a 4 core 4GB 2008 PC running cakewalk can pretty much just about keep up with the metronome. (It is 64 bit though). It's got to be the module that's causing the delay i reckon which i reckon isn't very good considering how expensive they are! You should just do what i do and not play or just hit practice pads for the drums you don't want to have miced and then record one sample and just add in the sounds later. Now THAT is a pain in the posterior! XD
 
It's a tad over .005 a second delay, almost, but not quite .010 seconds.

I'd done several recordings in the past and this hasn't been an issue.

But when I did something last week, it was very, very noticeable, not just to myself, but to several others who heard it.

When i edited my drum parts on a recent recording, i could pretty much notice anything above what works out to be 11/32 of a beat at 165 bpm or about 0.08 seconds.
 
I'd done several recordings in the past and this hasn't been an issue. But when I did something last week, it was very, very noticeable, not just to myself, but to several others who heard it.

Undoubtedly, something's changed somewhere, it's hard to imagine that you just suddenly became aware of such sounds.

Could anything have changed on your computer, your program preferences, or your audio interface recently? I don't think that the TD-10 went bad for no reason, and I don't recall it having any settings where latency could be controlled or altered.

Bermuda
 
Undoubtedly, something's changed somewhere, it's hard to imagine that you just suddenly became aware of such sounds.

Could anything have changed on your computer, your program preferences, or your audio interface recently? I don't think that the TD-10 went bad for no reason, and I don't recall it having any settings where latency could be controlled or altered.

Bermuda

The only change was going from Protools 7.4 to 8.1 software. That's when it started to become an issue.

Which makes me wonder if the new software is so advanced it can process audio (from the mics) that much faster, while MIDI (being an older technology) is stuck at what ever speed it is.

If you notice, it's not just the audio from the TD-10 that is behind the mic, the midi note is as well. And the midi note requires no digital to audio conversion, so in theory, it's going through one less process than the TD-10 audio, and yet it still shows up later.
 
The only change was going from Protools 7.4 to 8.1 software. That's when it started to become an issue.

Which makes me wonder if the new software is so advanced it can process audio (from the mics) that much faster, while MIDI (being an older technology) is stuck at what ever speed it is.

If you notice, it's not just the audio from the TD-10 that is behind the mic, the midi note is as well. And the midi note requires no digital to audio conversion, so in theory, it's going through one less process than the TD-10 audio, and yet it still shows up later.

I could imagine it being the software upgrade, although surley if it was the software that was lagging behind then all the audio tracks coming from your audio interface would have become quicker, including the TD-10 Feed?
 
I'm not that familiar with protools, but I do use sonar. All digital recording runs into the problems with latency. You also get a latency problem if you are drumming to an audio track that is played by your DAW. In sonar there is a latency setting that you set to match your audio interface latency. (It also gets set automatically using ASIO). So when you record something it just shifts the recording by the latency so it lines up properly. Also if you are using windows, don't use WMA drivers. Those are prone to having latency because of all the layers it goes through. Use ASIO drivers instead which talk directly to the audio interface.

Edit: Just noticed you're using a Mac. I'm even less useful in that category, sorry. I hope you figure it out. I would still look for latency settings in protools options. It's possible that the older version did them one way, but the newer version did them a different way.
 
I would still look for latency settings in protools options. It's possible that the older version did them one way, but the newer version did them a different way.

My thoughts as well, perhaps some of the old preferences weren't saved in the upgrade.

Bermuda
 
I could imagine it being the software upgrade, although surley if it was the software that was lagging behind then all the audio tracks coming from your audio interface would have become quicker, including the TD-10 Feed?

Except the TD-10 feed goes through the TD-10 itself.

You hit pad, pad sends signal to TD-10, TD-10 converts hit into midi information, the midi information is converted into sound, the sound goes to Protools.

The mic sends audio to Protools. Fewer steps.

Which I get, there will always be a lag, but dang, the lag was never this bad.
 
It's possible that the older version did them one way, but the newer version did them a different way.

Perhaps.

Last night, I repeated the test with both maximum and minimum CPU power and got the same results.

I repeated the test with both maximum and minimum DAE Playback buffer, and got the same results.

I repeated the test with both maximum and minimum Cache size and got the same results.

It seems no matter the computer setting, the results are identical.

If there was latency in the DAW, it should be roughly equal for both audio input sources.
 
You should just do what i do and not play or just hit practice pads for the drums you don't want to have miced and then record one sample and just add in the sounds later. Now THAT is a pain in the posterior! XD

Heh....I'd rather just dump all of this edrums and get additional microphones.

But then I'd need additional mic pre-amps, audio to digital converters, cables, stands, and suddenly a $1000 in new mics turns into $3000 of new gear, and that's just for lower-middle round mics.

Which is hard to deal with when I could spend $300 in a drum VST that will give me all the sounds of all the nicest drums recorded with the best mics in world class studios, and I could just trigger it off the gear I already own.
 
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