Why Is There Such An Anti-Jazz Vibe Here?

Well, I've got firsthand experience that goes back 30 years, and I haven't been making anything up, so we'll just have to agree that our experiences have been different.

Seems fair to me.


Yes indeed.... we all have a different story to tell from our own experiences so that why generalizations bug me so much but be clear i'm not directing that comment squarely at you Mike by any stretch as you have your own stories i'm sure to tell after all those years.

Peace.......

I see you modified your post:

I'll just add my experiences were hard learning experiences early on the bandstand but as clearly stated they were done out of love for the music and being all about the music and were NEVER mean spirited personally towards the individual sitting behind the kit since it all about being a better player and pushing myself harder to learn the jazz language and develop a jazz concept, chops had nothing to do with it since I had plenty of those even when is was young with my early rudimental training.

No malice was ever intended that's the clear big difference as I already laid in my earlier posts. Looking back those were some of the best milestone changing experiences for me in becoming a pro musician and what was expected from me not just as a drummer but at being a musician and not something I look back on as a negative experience at all.
 
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I never "got" jazz. I like Blues and even some of that big band swing (which is jazz, I know) but, that cocktail style Jazz just aint my thing.

I know exactly what you mean. But there's nothing really to "get." It's all there, just like with rock music or funk music or blues. It's just guys playing.

The "cocktail" thing, I think that's just mediocre players doing the noodley-oodley, playing standards in a paint-by-numbers sort of way. But the real stuff is so powerful, so visceral, that I have to challenge any musician to not get it.

It's all just music. I don't like country music, I don't like techno or hip-hop or smooth jazz or gross loud metal music (although some of those drummers are amazing) but I "get it." I get it because it's just music, and I'm a musician. It's been my job for close to forty years to get it.

I don't know where the idea that jazz is some sort of mysterious thing that only a few can understand came from. Jazz speaks to people just as much as any other kind of music does. It's just that these days very few people are listening.
 
I don't know any metal musician who even mention jazz.

Meet me.

This is my band: www.filacteria.com.

Songs where you can hear me swinging away on my Istanbul Hand Hammered Ride: Not a Man, Valley of The Bones, Take It Back

These are the records I was listening to today: Caravan, The Man With The Horn, A Night In Tunisia, Thelonious Monk's Greatest Hits, Cotrane - Best of Blue Note.

Some stuff I heard in High School: Michel Camilo, Chick Corea, Yellowjackets, Take 6, David Sanborn.

Stuff I grew up with: Manhattan Transfer, Herp Albert, Earl Klugh, Hugh Masekela.

Some metal stuff to pick your brain with: Spastic Ink, Death, Sol Niger, Fates Warning, Scarve, Meshuggah, Mastodon, Candiria, Lemur Voice.

It's the arm chair quarterbacks, very extremely close minded musicians and music critics on the sidelines who aren't in the actual "game" that put of everything into a tidy box and talk about the "rules" and what is acceptable musical behavior that causes the subsequent "noise" factor.

Many of the REAL snobs fall into this camp from my experience........

True to the power "n"
 
I don't know any metal musician who even mention jazz.

I've heard of several, but the only one that comes to mind atm is Joey Jordison.

I figure I may as well chime in like a good boy. I've liked jazz since the first time I heard Take Five, which I guess was around my high school days (early 90's). So no, you don't need any sort of training to like jazz, but I think I understand where Steam is coming from in saying you have to know more about it to appreciate it. While anyone can form an opinion, you have to be able to understand the difficulty and technique to truly appreciate it.

Another thing he mentioned that I fully agree with is that you have to put in a good amount of time and effort to be a jazz musician. But I think that also applies to any musician. One can say they play the drums, piano, etc, but unless it's a career or full time hobby one can't truly call him/herself a drummer, pianist, etc. Of course what do I know? I'm just a software engineer who happens to like playing the drums (and the guitar/bass) with his jam band. :)

P.S: I listen to and play mostly classic and alternative rock so please don't think I'm jazz biased in any way.
 
Yeah, it's that you guys are carrying on about what wise pros you are, and it just feels a little yucky to me. Have some class and tone it down.

Also, I've noticed a tendency on y'all's part to say the right things while conveying that which you are rattling on against.

Really, it started with the condescending, dismissive and borderline insulting attitude that my observation about metal and jazz drummers was met with.

This is your interpretation only. Are we not to speak as adults conveying ideas? Or, should we resort to adolescent remarks like "I'm gonna barf"? The fact of the matter is that there are educated adults discussing ideas. You have not replied as to why a professional musician should act unprofessionally.

At no point did I dismiss or put down metal. As stated by myself, there are serious musicians across ALL styles. Including metal. I don't go out of my way to listen to it because I've been hearing metal for 40 years and now it doesn't do much for me. I believe it to be a pop music style. There is nothing wrong with pop. I've never said there was on this site. And the same with jazz. I've heard a lot of jazz as well. I probably have not bought a jazz record in a year or so.

Nobody's trying to sound superior. There are adults here. That is all.

Stan, that's great. Let me know how it goes.
 
See, when a non-jazz guy says something it's just his interpetation. When a jazz guy says something that's it, baby, carved in stone. Ignore at your peril.


Is Mike not a jazz guy? That is news to me.

As for you Jay, aren't you sick of trolling this site yet? I knew you were not a real musician when you were posting as Jay Norem. I knew you were a fake. Can you not get a better hobby?

I recall not long ago someone mentioned the bodhran, I think it was Michael. And I responded. Sure enough the next day you got a bodhran too.

I am not a jazz musician, or a funk musician or a rock musician. I'm just a musician and not being a teenager feeling the need to rebel I have no desire to join any kind of musical clan. I'm not in the ska clan, nor the jazz clan, nor the metal clan. I prefer to be an adult with wide ranging tastes. And in fact that is my job.
 
So no, you don't need any sort of training to like jazz, but I think I understand where Steam is coming from in saying you have to know more about it to appreciate it. While anyone can form an opinion, you have to be able to understand the difficulty and technique to truly appreciate it.
.

Yes, but you can just enjoy it as Con Struct said. It is just guys playing music. Listening to Monk makes me smile because his music sounds so goofy and smart at the same time. It sure is challenging to play, but that is of second importance to me. (Sorry my english... but i could not resist to chime in!)
 
Yes, but you can just enjoy it as Con Struct said.

Yeah, I said that already. In the very first sentence of the paragraph you quoted, "...you don't need any sort of training to like jazz..." So we agree. :)
 
Yeah, I said that already. In the very first sentence of the paragraph you quoted, "...you don't need any sort of training to like jazz..." So we agree. :)

Yes we do.

I thought about what Con Struct said: he "gets" country but he does not like it. I don´t like it either. It seems to be so predictable and conservative. But maybe we just don´t get the true essence of it behind those simple chord progressions and rhythms?
 
This is your interpretation only.
Yes it is, and I think it's pretty spot on.
Are we not to speak as adults conveying ideas? Or, should we resort to adolescent remarks like "I'm gonna barf"?
...Many do not understand what it is like to be a pro musician and try to push their own prejudices onto it.
Honestly, your talk of being such a misunderstood professional seemed a bit presumptuous to me.
The fact of the matter is that there are educated adults discussing ideas.
And?
You have not replied as to why a professional musician should act unprofessionally.
That is a preposterous question that doesn't deserve a serious reply. Furthermore, it's a claim I never made. You seem to like the straw man.

There is a pattern here where you throw up these easy questions that seem so innocent, so innocuous, but that are actually very distorted... I wonder why that is.
At no point did I dismiss or put down metal.
Straw man. I never said you did.
As stated by myself, there are serious musicians across ALL styles. Including metal.
Another straw man: I never claimed anything to the contrary. But you dismissed my idea that metal drummers typically are any more wrapped up in technique than other drummers who you lump in with "pop". Similarly, jazz requires the development of an array of "chops" that I think most reasonable people can agree exceeds that which is required for most other genres.

And I completely fail to see how metal is anymore pop than combo jazz, and certainly less so than big band jazz.

I don't go out of my way to listen to it because I've been hearing metal for 40 years and now it doesn't do much for me...
FWIW, I've never liked metal and I'm not trying to defend it here. I don't much care for most jazz either. But that's beside the point. You asked the question about why the comparisons between the two kept cropping up, and I gave you my opinion as to why. You chose to pooh pooh it. That was the dismissive part that got my hackles up.
Nobody's trying to sound superior. There are adults here. That is all.
There's that adult theme again... weird.
 
As for you Jay, aren't you sick of trolling this site yet? I knew you were not a real musician when you were posting as Jay Norem. I knew you were a fake. Can you not get a better hobby?


I can only wish for that to happen in my wildest dreams wy...........time to leave the raw meat in the fridge where it belongs for good is LONG overdue from this character.

It always boils down to try and break down the unspoken code of mutual respect respect by fellow musicians for each other and make the good look bad or bad guys period and leave everyone else shaking their heads at the end of the day to try and figure out what the original discussion was actually about.


Only the troll knows why he does this.... over and over and over again at this place. Pretty sad....
 
Only the troll knows why he does this.... over and over and over again at this place. Pretty sad....
Could you guys kindly tip me off on this whole troll thing? Who is it you're referring to? Is it con struct?
 
Yes it is, and I think it's pretty spot on.

"You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree because it is not what was meant. Again, interpretation is the key."


Honestly, your talk of being such a misunderstood professional seemed a bit presumptuous to me.

Rubbish! Misunderstood professional, what a load of bollocks.


And?
That is a preposterous question that doesn't deserve a serious reply. Furthermore, it's a claim I never made. You seem to like the straw man.

I am simply throwing an interpretation back at you. What, you disagree? No straw man there. It is no different from you saying I think I am a misunderstood professional.

There is a pattern here where you throw up these easy questions that seem so innocent, so innocuous, but that are actually very distorted... I wonder why that is.

The pattern is that having been here for some time I have come to see many negative statements made against professional musicians. There is no real attitude with professionals in any field other than trying to do their best. Hopefully. Your comments, rightly or wrongly on my part, echoed many of those sentiments. Of course I am interpreting your words.

You don't like my interpretation?



Straw man. I never said you did.

I believe it was implied. That is my interpretation.


Another straw man: I never claimed anything to the contrary. But you dismissed my idea that metal drummers typically are any more wrapped up in technique than other drummers who you lump in with "pop". And I completely fail to see how metal is anymore pop than combo jazz, and certainly less so than big band jazz.

I dismissed your idea? Please clarify. I never intended such a thing.

As for the word Pop? Is it a 4 letter word or something? What is wrong with it?

My use of the word is in response to many who post that any form of popular music, whether it be ska, hip hop, metal or whatever, is somehow more credible than others. I disagree and think all musical forms are credible. Jazz and metal included. Any disrespect for pop is in the mind of the reader. Not the author. Thanks very much!


FWIW, I've never liked metal and I'm not trying to defend it here. I don't much care for most jazz either. But that's beside the point. You asked the question about why the comparisons between the two kept cropping up, and I gave you my opinion as to why.

Did I attack you for it?


There's that adult theme again... weird.

I believed you were wondering why we were being serious. My response was that the conversation was simply an adult conversation. perhaps some adults are more adult than others. I do not know your circle and cannot comment. But I'm quite serious at times. I make no apologies for having grown up. in fact I wish at times I were more grown up!
 
See whats happening? Jay Norem relishes in seeing this type of negative behavior of musicians attacking musicians since it feeds the trolls dark self serving desires to a tee which is feeding the belly of beast of negativity accomplishing NOTHING positive as a result. Mission accomplished....

I thought wy was pretty straight up with his counter point of view and honestly was trying to present it as a adult just as I was with what I offered you. What's the real underlying issue going on here Mike?

Do tell...... did someone lay some real heavy nasty stuff on you at some point in your career? Remember we are the good guys.
 
Who the hell is Jay Norem!? Let us in on the secret already!

I guess it doesn't matter, just a point of interest... It's like asking "Who is John Galt", or something!

What's the real underlying issue going on here Mike?
I had an issue over this with you an wy earlier. You and I seemed to have resolved it, but wy must have just been checking back in and replied to my earlier thoughts. So we're "recalibrating" so to speak.

Do tell...... did someone lay some real heavy nasty stuff on you at some point in your career?
Yeah, a friend of mine let me borrow Eric Dolphy's "Out To Lunch" and I hated it! Man, I really wanted to like it, being Tony Williams and all, but I just couldn't do it. I've known my share of real jazz snobs and I know they're out there. I took jazz band in high school and college and was left with the flavor that it's a bit of a cult. No biggie, I feel the same way about death metal!

I really like Count Basie with Gus Williams from around '54, though. It was the only thing that could get my newborn to sleep. It really seemed to sooth his mind, and for my part, I didn't mind at all listening to that one album I had day in and day out, night after night for the first 2 years of his life (a nameless album that I put on CD and that I've never seen anywhere... i think it might have been live at the Savoy or something) I still listen to it.

Remember we are the good guys.
Ha ha! That's what they all say! Seriously, I believe your intent is good.
 
Originally Posted by wy yung
Agreed. Many do not understand what it is like to be a pro musician and try to push their own prejudices onto it. Pro's just get on with it regardless and do the best job they can.

Obviously this mentality we witness is from the schoolyard. The "My brand of car is better!" idea.


Wow! Ha Ha! Seriously? Okay... I'm gonna barf now!

Okay, found the BAD post.

Allow me to clarify.

Last week I was listening to a commentary on a DVD of an old British TV show called UFO. The man doing the interview with the actor was a fan. Not a serious professional interviewer. At many points he ask the actor questions such as.. "Was there any tension between you and so and so?" "How did you get along with this director? etc etc. To which the actor responded "Well British professional actors usually do their work to the best of their ability." He said this a number of times. Funnily it reminded me of the many comments I have seen here, usually from younger people who believe that the style they love has more worth than another. These people remind me of the interviewer. He did not understand that the people on the show were not fans of the show, they were "on a job".

This is from where my comment is derived. You wanting to "barf" in response reminded me of the interviewer.
 
Mike I have no problem with you. I think there has been a serious misinterpretation as to intent. I am in far off Australia and have a different way of expressing myself. I am also in a very different musical enviroment. At no time did I wish to disrespect you.
 
Who the hell is Jay Norem!? Let us in on the secret already!

I guess it doesn't matter, just a point of interest... It's like asking "Who is John Galt", or something!


I had an issue over this with you an wy earlier. You and I seemed to have resolved it, but wy must have just been checking back in and replied to my earlier thoughts. So we're "recalibrating" so to speak.

Yeah, a friend of mine let me borrow Eric Dolphy's "Out To Lunch" and I hated it! Man, I really wanted to like it, being Tony Williams and all, but I just couldn't do it. I've known my share of real jazz snobs and I know they're out there. I took jazz band in high school and college and was left with the flavor that it's a bit of a cult. No biggie, I feel the same way about death metal!

I really like Count Basie with Gus Williams from around '54, though. It was the only thing that could get my newborn to sleep. It really seemed to sooth his mind, and for my part, I didn't mind at all listening to that one album I had day in and day out, night after night for the first 2 years of his life (a nameless album that I put on CD and that I've never seen anywhere... i think it might have been live at the Savoy or something) I still listen to it.

Ha ha! That's what they all say! Seriously, I believe your intent is good.


Just a sad whatever in my view but a true trouble maker creating havoc on whatever forum he goes to.....



Well we all dig what we dig and don't let bad experiences or listening preferences or truly snobs tarnish everyone else under the same brush is my honest sincere advice. Remember what I said about generalizations?

Yes believe it or not i'm a pretty decent guy in the flesh and no music snob, been on the recieving end of several in my lifetime though so I know how it feels firsthand... its the trolls job to try and create another belief about straight shooting folks and their true intents like me and others.
 
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