MOELLER METHOD

[Wavelength]

Re: the moler technique

Full stroke - stick starts and finishes in high position

A complete waste of time to practice, and a completely unnatural motion for the body. Do you ever hold your legs in the air before taking a step to walk or run. All efficient motion in the body begins from a state of rest and returns to one.

Do you run like this:

1) Lie flat on the ground, resting.
2) Stand up.
3) Take a leap forward and land face-first on the ground, so you can lie and rest naturally and comfortably.
4) Repeat 2 and 3.

Starting and stopping the stick at the top of it's arc is not a state of rest for your arms. It only induces tension in the arms and upper body, why practice a motion that creates tension? Practicing fighting gravity is a waste of time.

Do you happen to possess the power to lift your sticks up again and again without needing to fight gravity every single time you do it?

Up stroke - stick starts in low position, finishes in high position

This starts ok but again why practice stopping the stick at the top of it's natural arc? Why not allow gravity to bring you down? why tense your muscles to stop gravity's pull? What is gained by stopping up?

The up stroke is used when you play a ghost note followed by an accent. I wonder how you manage to perform that motion without lifting your sticks. Probably like so:

1) Tap the drum from the low position.
2) Think "I'm about to play an accent!"
3) Lift the stick.
4) Remember, that one shouldn't keep his sticks high, and let gravity do its job.
5) ...hold on. Where was I again?

Down stroke

Well, this stuff must be mind-boggling since you haven't the slightest idea how rebound works.

Tap stroke - stick starts and finishes in low position

This is getting close, in words, but when I see it demonstrated
by Moeller advocates it's usually to play a soft note.

Are you one of those guys who have a good grasp on dynamic playing, i.e. can play VERY LOUD and LOUDER? Or it could be that you play your ghost notes by starting low, lifting the stick and then move the stick veeeery sloooowlyy and gently towards the drum. That's certainly a great way to conserve energy and lessen tension.

Gravity will always pull you down as fast as you can lift up.

That's BS. Earth's gravity gives objects in free fall an acceleration speed of 9,81 m/s^2. Anyone can move the sticks at a far quicker speed.

The other motions are useless to practice as they only induce muscular tension and a bad habit of stopping the stick at the top of it's arc.

And stopping the stick's natural rebound isn't a bad habit creating muscular tension, hmm?

--------

I can't help feeling that you've understood the whole concept horribly wrong. Let's just say that the four strokes facilitate the maximum use of rebound and minimum use of effort in ALL PLAYING.

 

[abe]

Re: the moler technique

Wavelength,
You're so wrong best way how to save energy is let both hands rest on drum head while sluging in nice chair-bed Have you ever dribbled a pillow?

 

[stasz]

Re: the moler technique

All the stuff Wavelength said that I don't want to repost.

...Dang.

But well-said.

The upstroke explanation was my favorite one.

YEM

 

[BennyT]

Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

The stick is not a bouncing ball it is a hammer.
Learn to lift the stick with your wrist muscles, if you want more speed.
On planet earth things will only come down as fast as they move up.
That means speed is first, determined by your muscles lifting ability.
Holding the sticks in the air, and playing what are called full strokes
will build no muscles you don't already have.

I don't know whether you're trying to get a response through pointless controversy or not but...

Talking of your hammer analogy...If you take a hammer and hit the ground, it will stop. Then you can lift it back up. If you take a hammer and hit a rebounding surface, such as a trampoline, it will fly back up to you with the force you generated with your downstroke. You don't need to lift it back up and it will come up a lot faster.
Same thing with sticks and rebound. Now to clear something up, I'm not talking about any Moeller stroke here. I don't think Moeller should be advocated as a speed technique because it's primary goal has nothing to do with speed really. As I said in my previous post it is about generating more force and strokes (accents/non accents) in a single natural motion with little energy.

I think you actually contradicted yourself with the above statement. You should go over what you write and think about it. Anyway, on to what you said: In your statement you said things will only go down as fast as they move up. Ok. Sure. So if you throw your stick down and let it go and rebound by itself it will fly back up at you very, very quickly. If you throw it down and pull it back up with your wrist it is stopping it's natural inertia and it is noticeably slower. If you can learn to harness natural rebound, which pillow practice will not help you with, I believe you can go a lot faster, also with a lot less effort and strain rather than muscling through it.

It's quite simple actually. I just don't think you understand what these various techniques you're talking about are for. You say Buddy uses no Moeller in his lightning fast single stroke roll built up from one inch from the head. Well of course he doesn't, because you don't use Moeller stroke for that purpose at all, in any way shape or form. You just use a normal single stroke with fingers and/or wrists. Different techniques for different purposes.
Saying Moeller ignores the natural laws of motion shows once again that you have no understanding of it whatsoever. It is about using those exact laws of motion for increased ease of playing. As are the four strokes which you also seem to have no grasp of. Wavelength's post explains those well (great post man). Seriously, I would suggest getting a well reputed technique teacher to go over the fundamentals with you. It will do wonders.

 

[Wavelength]

Re: the moler technique

Have you ever dribbled a pillow?

I stopped when I realised it wouldn't fit through a basketball hoop.

 

[Drums558]

Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

.

It's quite simple actually. I just don't think you understand what these various techniques you're talking about are for. You say Buddy uses no Moeller in his lightning fast single stroke roll built up from one inch from the head. Well of course he doesn't, because you don't use Moeller stroke for that purpose at all, in any way shape or form. You just use a normal single stroke with fingers and/or wrists. Different techniques for different purposes.

This is what was going through my mind as I read CactusJacks post.
Full strokes and understanding the motion that creates a good rebound has been a very important aspect of improving my stick control.
"Different techniques for different purposes". Well said jazzin.

Mike

 

[jonescrusher]

Re: the moler technique

Please enlighten me as to what rudiment or musical event you use these unnatural motions for and why? Maybe I'm missing something.....

As I said, I think we're agreeing on some things, and not on others. I've scanned in a couple of basic examples on how the fours strokes would be applied to some simple rudiments,

D = downstroke
F = fullstroke
U = upstroke
T = tapstroke

The point is, these four strokes cover any sticking, with the result being a more fluid and dynamically stable playing ability.

 

[jonescrusher]

Re: the moler technique

These four basic strokes and usage of rebound aren't exclusive to Moeller, since they can be executed using just fingers or just wrists (Gladstone technique). It's the whipping up-stroke or pull-out motion that distinguishes the Moeller technique from other techniques.

Yes, as is usual with the system it comes down to the specifics in the way you were taught it. I'm happy with the way I was taught it and it made sense quickly. As long as the end result is the same then it's all good.
Still, I stand by the whipping motion being but one of the results of correctly employed Moeller motions. I don't think it defines the system.

 

[abe]

Re: the moler technique

I stopped when I realised it wouldn't fit through a basketball hoop.

Man, I love your humor

Oh I can't stop laughing

 

[SEVNT7]

Re: the moler technique

Thanks Wavelength........

 

[cactusjack]

Re: the moler technique

You know less than nothing. Are you talking out your ass just to get a response? You should also take a physics class. So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows. That doesn't teach you to bounce the stick. It helps you react faster. Besides, comparing outright speed is rediculous. Some people are just faster. Were you the fastest runner in your highschool? Moeller is a great technique to have under your belt. When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing................Later....T

I wasn't talking about bouncing a stick, don't you read?
I was talking about single strokes. How many times must
I state SINGLE STROKES before you see it?

I quote: "So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows"
If a master drummer like Buddy or Dennis tells you what he does to improve his single strokes YOU IGNORE HIM ???
Hmmm .... very wise decision on your part.

"When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing"

All I can say is maybe read what I said again, and try to understand that
practicing motions that create tension are a useless waste of time.
If you believe that holding the stick up in the air after playing a note is a good thing to practice then more power to you , but it tells me you really don't understand how the laws of motion apply to drums or your own body.
You are ignoring the tension created by this way of playing and unaware of how it affects what your trying to do.
As I asked before, what do you play in a musical situation that
requires you to hold the sticks and your arms up in the air after
playing a note??????

You seem to be repeating what you've been told and not using
your brains to reason out what you see and hear when a master plays.
Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing,
where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.
There certainly have been enough generations of drummers that
have learned it. Where are the results??
Every year athletes push their records higher, yet there are only a handful of drummers that play with virtuosity.
WHY???
Could it be that everyone is making a simple mistake that prevents them from doing what Buddy and Dennis are doing?
I repeat, ON EARTH THINGS MOVE UP THEN DOWN.
using the opposite motion creates tension which inhibits your bodys
ability to work at maximum efficiency. Once you pattern this inefficiency into you playing it is very hard to undo.

Maybe you think that Buddy and Dennis are freaks of nature and that is
why they are faster than you?
They are only flesh and blood, and if you better understood what they were doing physically you might have a chance of matching it.
But as long as you cling to ancient misguided notions invented for
marching drumming you do not have a hope.

 

[DannyG]

Aaron Spears pic/video?

On Aaron spears's personal profile, there's a pic of him sitting behind a set of practice pad's. . . . is that just a pic or does anyone know the link to the video it belongs to?

Cheers!
Dan

 

[centralzeke]

Re: the moler technique

Wrong, Moeller technique reduces tension, not creates it. Anyone who denies this doesn't have a grasp of that concept and hasn't figured it out drumwise.

And the experts would say Buddy Rich did use a form of Moeller, though maybe he didn't practice it, it's a natural motion and good drummers come across it without trying. If you look at his fast accents, you'll see a whipping motion with his wrist.

Catching rebound and Moeller technique works with gravity and physics. Pillow practicing creates muscular tension, is there something you don't understand. The full stroke, half strokes, and low strokes where you start at a certain height and end at a certain height are so you play more relaxed. You are doing them wrong if you experience problems with "tension", so I really don't know where you're coming from relating these concepts to tension. It just doesn't make sense. Does any drum feel like a pillow? No. If you want to sound like Dennis Chambers, go ahead, give it a shot. I personally don't have an obsession with Dennis Chambers, I like the chopsy virtuosos like Mayer and Steve Smith a lot more.

There are plenty of drummers with amazing chops, not a handful. Are you kidding?!

You present way too much information that contradicts the truth, it makes it really hard to actually respond to your posts. Why do you feel so strongly about this? No one is acting like Moeller is a secret technique, it's really natural. It's really not an abstract concept. You go to a certain speed with accenting, and the motion changes to be more efficient. Is there something you don't understand?

This is a pretty pointless argument.

 

[ajgdrums7814]

Re: the moler technique

I wasn't talking about bouncing a stick, don't you read?
I was talking about single strokes. How many times must
I state SINGLE STROKES before you see it?

I quote: "So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows"
If a master drummer like Buddy or Dennis tells you what he does to improve his single strokes YOU IGNORE HIM ???
Hmmm .... very wise decision on your part.

"When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing"

All I can say is maybe read what I said again, and try to understand that
practicing motions that create tension are a useless waste of time.
If you believe that holding the stick up in the air after playing a note is a good thing to practice then more power to you , but it tells me you really don't understand how the laws of motion apply to drums or your own body.
You are ignoring the tension created by this way of playing and unaware of how it affects what your trying to do.
As I asked before, what do you play in a musical situation that
requires you to hold the sticks and your arms up in the air after
playing a note??????

You seem to be repeating what you've been told and not using
your brains to reason out what you see and hear when a master plays.
Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing,
where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.
There certainly have been enough generations of drummers that
have learned it. Where are the results??
Every year athletes push their records higher, yet there are only a handful of drummers that play with virtuosity.
WHY???
Could it be that everyone is making a simple mistake that prevents them from doing what Buddy and Dennis are doing?
I repeat, ON EARTH THINGS MOVE UP THEN DOWN.
using the opposite motion creates tension which inhibits your bodys
ability to work at maximum efficiency. Once you pattern this inefficiency into you playing it is very hard to undo.

Maybe you think that Buddy and Dennis are freaks of nature and that is
why they are faster than you?
They are only flesh and blood, and if you better understood what they were doing physically you might have a chance of matching it.
But as long as you cling to ancient misguided notions invented for
marching drumming you do not have a hope.

Watch JoJo Mayer's new DVD and tell me that these methods don't yield fantastic results.

And if you have all the secrets to the world of drumming, why don't you post a video to displaying your incredible Buddy/Dennis-trained technique? I assume your just posting this garbage to get a rise out of people because quite frankly, none of it makes any sense.

If there is a way to get the stick back into your hand without expelling any of your own energy, how in the hell does that create MORE tension? Ridiculous.

 

[cactusjack]

Re: the moler technique

You know less than nothing. Are you talking out your ass just to get a response? You should also take a physics class. So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows. That doesn't teach you to bounce the stick. It helps you react faster. Besides, comparing outright speed is rediculous. Some people are just faster. Were you the fastest runner in your highschool? Moeller is a great technique to have under your belt. When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing................Later....T

I wasn't talking about bouncing a stick, don't you read?
I was talking about single strokes. How many times must
I state SINGLE STROKES before you see it?

I quote: "So what if Buddy & Dennis practiced on pillows"
If a master drummer like Buddy or Dennis tells you what he does to improve his single strokes YOU IGNORE HIM ???
Hmmm .... very wise decision on your part.

"When you get a clue, You'll realize that every technique you can learn can only add to your playing"

All I can say is maybe read what I said again, and try to understand that
practicing motions that create tension are a useless waste of time.
If you believe that holding the stick up in the air after playing a note is a good thing to practice then more power to you , but it tells me you really don't understand how the laws of motion apply to drums or your own body.
You are ignoring the tension created by this way of playing and unaware of how it affects what your trying to do.
As I asked before, what do you play in a musical situation that
requires you to hold the sticks and your arms up in the air after
playing a note??????

You seem to be repeating what you've been told and not using
your brains to reason out what you see and hear when a master plays.
Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing,
where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.
There certainly have been enough generations of drummers that
have learned it. Where are the results??
Every year athletes push their records higher, yet there are only a handful of drummers that play with virtuosity.
WHY???
Could it be that everyone is making a simple mistake that prevents them from doing what Buddy and Dennis are doing?
I repeat, ON EARTH THINGS MOVE UP THEN DOWN.
Using the opposite motion creates tension which inhibits your bodys
ability to work at maximum efficiency. Once you pattern this inefficiency into you playing it is very hard to undo.

Maybe you think that Buddy and Dennis are freaks of nature
and that is why they are faster than most everyone else?
They are only flesh and blood like you, and if you better understood what they were doing physically you might have a chance of matching it.
But as long as you cling to ancient misguided notions invented for
marching drumming, you do not have a hope.

 

[Wavelength]

Re: the moler technique

I just noticed a reoccurring phrase in cj's posts -- "holding the sticks up" -- and can only surmise that this whole argument is based on a misconception.

The point of the four basic strokes isn't to put the sticks somewhere and keep them there. Rather, the strokes are used to always pre-empt the next stroke. If you want to play an accent, the previous stroke should end in the up-position. If you want to play a ghost note, the previous stroke should end in the down-position. Using this principle makes the strokes flow more easily and really, really lessens tension and energy expenditure. Again, the Moeller motion doesn't have any use if you are playing a single stroke roll, but for dynamic passages it's very effective.

 

[Wavelength]

Re: the moler technique

Moeller has been around for a long time, if it is such a great thing, where are all the virtuosos it should have produced by now.

Well, the majority of modern drumming virtuosi (Dave Weckl and Steve Smith to name a couple) apply the Moeller motion in one way or another. Single stroke roll speed isn't a meter of virtuosity.

 

[cactusjack]

Re: the moler technique

I just noticed a reoccurring phrase in cj's posts -- "holding the sticks up" -- and can only surmise that this whole argument is based on a misconception.

The point of the four basic strokes isn't to put the sticks somewhere and keep them there. Rather, the strokes are used to always pre-empt the next stroke. If you want to play an accent, the previous stroke should end in the up-position. If you want to play a ghost note, the previous stroke should end in the down-position. Using this principle makes the strokes flow more easily and really, really lessens tension and energy expenditure. Again, the Moeller motion doesn't have any use if you are playing a single stroke roll, but for dynamic passages it's very effective.

Hi Wavelength,
I want to examine something you said
"If you want to play an accent, the previous stroke should end in the up-position."
I've been asking for a musical example of the application of the motion
and that was your answer, no?
Then can we agree that when you play a backbeat with a band is that not an accented note? If you agree, do you hold your arm and stick in the air between backbeats? When you walk or run do you hold your leg up in the air between motions? I don't understand how you can claim that
this makes things flow more easily, it is fighting gravity, and you do not
realize it because you are use to the tension. from practicing moeller.

Please read what Buddy Rich had to say about playing on a pillow
at this url
http://www.bopworks.net/ads/buddyRichColumn.jpg

READ CAREFULLY. He states clearly that it should be done very slowly
for a long time, that implies that he isn't advocating doing it at high speeds,
he's trying to teach you how to walk, if you figure that out, all you need do
is tell yourself to go faster. When you learn to walk with your feet as an infant, you do not practice running, once their is a little strength to stand and balance, you figure out how to walk , and running isn't much of an issue Buddy is trying to get you to FEEL how to move, the rest is learning music.

Did you ever see Buddy Rich anywhere in performance and hear what he sounded like, with your own ears? Have you really heard a virtuoso play the snare? As as much as I like and respect Dave Weckl and Steve Smith's music making I don't consider them to be virtuoso snare drummers. (Weckl and Smith fans don't meltdown, please)

Anyway I'm curious what you have to say about what Buddy states,
and do you feel Buddy is someone maybe worth listening to?
I think his singles and rebounds are pretty good, but it seems a lot of people on threads here at drummer world feel that pillow practice makes them stiff.
Well they didn't READ CAREFULLY or maybe they didn't read at all.
He says not to go fast and to stop at the slightest tension. WHY?
Because if you feel tension your doing it WRONG and he is telling you so
by asking you to stop , relax and start over. Until you FEEL it you won't GET IT. Buddy knows that and is trying to help you as best he can with words.
Buddy only has words to describe a physical sensation the answer
to his blazing technique is in the words but so few seem to understand
what the words mean, will you be able to understand or will your preconceptions from Moeller block your understanding?
It's all right there quite clear, if you understand the meaning of the words.
No lies, no fluff, no BS right from a virtuoso's mind and wisdom,
exactly how to practice for technique.
No, mention of Full stroke , Up stroke, Down stroke, or Tap stroke,
these ideas predated Buddy, he knew of them, If he felt these promoted good technique, don't you think he would say so?

 

[centralzeke]

Re: the moler technique

I think it's safe to say Henry Adler wrote that article, just like Adler wrote the majority if not ALL of Buddy Rich's rudiment book, just like he wrote several other drummers books. So you really can't use that as an example.

Yes, Buddy Rich was a virtuoso, virtuosos are pretty much freaks of nature. Have you ever seen a 5 year old pianist play an amazing classical passage? It's insane. You're right, we are all made of the same chemicals, so we have the potential to get to that level (at least chopswise!!!!). If pillow practice works for you, great. But have you seen John Blackwell, who practiced on pillows from the advice he got from Dennis Chambers? I guess he grooves all right, but I don't want to hold my sticks like that, he looks like he's playing with hammers and all tensed up. Important note: drumsticks ARE NOT like hammers..

Buddy Rich had been playing drums since he was 3. He had natural talent and experience. He didn't sound like that simply by practicing technique on pillows.

It seems like there's something you're not understanding when it comes to upstrokes and downstrokes, I think you might be overanalyzing or exaggerating these ideas.

 

[ajgdrums7814]

Re: the moler technique

You ask where all the drumming virtuosos the Moeller technique is producing are...

...yet you keep referring back to the same two drummers (Rich and Chambers) to support your theory that practicing on a pillow is the only way to practice.