Educational threads vs. opinions, etc…

This has some really greasy quarters on hats and some open straight quarters on hats. The drums are isolated and you can clearly hear the variation in how the hats are played as well as feel their push pull in the greasy sections.

 
Rock Salad said:
I posted a track I like to practice to by Jim Hall and Ron Carter that can throw me off if I am not focused. Just give it a try, you might find something new to enjoy
Here it is again
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I'm almost afraid now to say it, afraid of being labeled "elitist snob" or whatever, but I've listened to that tune days ago when you posted it in the original thread. And for me there is a very steady pulse in that performance and I don't lose track at any point. Does that mean I'm somehow better than you....? No it does not! It simply means I've listened to comparable tunes probably a lot more than you and I've absorbed more of the vocabulary these kind of players use.
That's all what everyone is trying to say with "listen to the music". Trust me, when I was in my teens and listening to Motley Crue and Slayer, I wouldn't have found it easy either. But I got seduced by jazz music, spent countless hours listening to it and eventually "the lingo" started to click.
 
Yes, no doubt there is. Those guys time is impeccable. There are sections with very few down beats though, try it with a cymbal? and no clams!

p.s. you are probably a better drummer than I am. I'm a noob drummer, soon to graduate to sophomoric.
 
Rock Salad said:
p.s. you are probably a better drummer than I am. I'm a noob drummer, soon to graduate to sophomoric.
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I'm gonna put myself out there again for criticism, but in my opinion that's where things go wrong with these "jazz" threads... It's not a matter of who's best as in who's technically more proficient or who can play the most incredibly intricate stuff at breakneck speeds...at it's foundation it has a lot more to do with being familiar with the language the musicians you play with use.

Lots of people starting out on the jazz thing, get overly concerned with their perception of the technical requirements to play the music. They listen to the modern day jazz drummers and have this idea of "playing as many notes as possible equals jazz".
While in reality it doesn't take all that much to swing a band at a basic level. Good time and good taste gets you 90% of the way. And you start from there...and slowly build up your facilities and bag of tricks... It's not gonna click overnight, it takes time. And a lot of listening.
 
C. Dave Run said:
This has some really greasy quarters on hats and some open straight quarters on hats. The drums are isolated and you can clearly hear the variation in how the hats are played as well as feel their push pull in the greasy sections.

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I heard virtually all eighth notes, rather than quarters, but you're on the money about the great feel. Love that variability while still essentially playing the same note value.
 
Sebenza said:
I'm not sure that concept of swung quarters can be isolated on it's own. I think it'll always need to be viewed within the context of the music that it's supposed to support.

Sometimes the "spang-a-lang" is a very wide triplet feel with a lazy, skipping sensation to it, sometimes it's right there with the triplet and sometimes it gets pushed into the sixteenth note realm (like it's notated in the Chapin book). Plenty of drummers play with that concept...during a pushing shuffle part of the music they might ever so slightly go into that sixteenth realm, while they might otherwise play it straight up the middle or even lay back a tad with the skip note.

I think the concept really means that one could try to convey those different feels just through the quarter note...and yes that'll probably mean being very particular about it's placement and sound....do I want to push and excite the whole thing...or do I want to convey a relaxed time feel to the listener... The way you strike the cymbal...this one I can't really explain, but I know there's a difference for me.

I've been thinking about it quite a bit since that thread and I've come to realise I use that whole quarter note ride thing a lot more than I thought. And mostly for effect...for pushing everything when a new soloist starts or when we transition from the theme into the solos...for laying back when it's a softer section...during bass solos etc... Just playing quarter notes on the ride can be a real eye catcher in a jazz context....everyone kinda perks up and goes "hey, something's about to happen here...."

But again, I think it needs to be viewed in the context of what's going on around us and then it can make sense to focus on it. What went wrong in the thread, I believe, is that a lot of people equate "the quarter note" to the metronome clicking along....and while it's "right", it's also "wrong". Whatever "feel" you can apply to the eight or sixteenth note can also apply to the quarter note. There's no logical reason to think otherwise in my opinion.
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So your describing a tension away from the pulse whether increased or decreased within the piece?

That makes sense, at least to me.
 
someguy01 said:
People are labeled "experts" by others using only college degrees or time within a field as qualifiers not actual unlimited and complete knowledge of a subject.
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How do you make out at the doctor or dentists office?

But seriously, never presume a college degree does an expert make. It takes years experience as well as education. True, experts often reveal how much is unknown, but that doesn't mean everybody should question if/what they do know.
 
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Rock Salad said:
I like the science analogy. Hypothesis is presented. Each of us has our own "research lab" in our drum kit. The invitation is to test the hypothesis independently
By the way, I'm reading a book about evolutionary biology lol
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yes, except not all labs produce the same data. Data is the key, the fact, that will make or break the hypothesis as confirmed. Some labs also staff experts.
This whole questioning of experts. I would pay to see some of the doubters here at a clinic where Buddy Rich describes how to perfect a single stroke roll and some of the doubters say "but Buddy ...."
 
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opentune said:
How do you make out at the doctor or dentists office?
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I grill them like I'm channeling Torquemada. Doctors are the most prone to mistakes from the way practices rush patients through to make numbers. They're another group that makes plenty of mistakes, enough that they have specialized insurance to cover their liability.
 
Still no definition of what makes one a drum expert. Is it like the swung quarter note, you can't define it I'll just know it when I see/hear it?
I am genuine in my curiosity. Several gigging, experienced players have referred to others as questioning an expert but have still given no criteria as to what makes one an expert on drums.
oldskoolsoul said:
As if, to just use the example again, Erskine should also be an expert on blast beats in order to be considered an expert in general…
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I am asking what the criteria is for the expert label. Is Erskine a Jazz expert? More say than, say, Riley? What are the qualifiers?
If no one can actually answer, just say you don't know and rescind the use of "expert" in relation to drumming.
 
opentune said:
I would pay to see some of the doubters here at a clinic where Buddy Rich describes how to perfect a single stroke roll and some of the doubters say "but Buddy ...."
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If he explained something in a way that wasn't easily understood or overly complex, I would 100% raise my hand and say "Mr. Rich, that made no sense to me, is there another way to go about the explanation?"
Asking questions because you don't understand is how you learn.
 
someguy01 said:
If he explained something in a way that wasn't easily understood or overly complex, I would 100% raise my hand and say "Mr. Rich, that made no sense to me, is there another way to go about the explanation?"
Asking questions because you don't understand is how you learn.
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people also have to remember that asking questions is NOT doubting experience...

if I ask Buddy Rich, or my doctor, to further explain something, it is not a question of their status...it is a curiosity of how they got there. If I am questioning their status, than that is different

if the person being asked is "offended" somehow by the question, then that is something I can't help with.

I guess being a teacher, I expect people to ask me about things, and never perceive questioning as an insult to my experience.

I am also not hardwired to worry about my "status" in anything really...status has never mattered to me
 
opentune said:
How do you make out at the doctor or dentists office?

But seriously, never presume a college degree does an expert make. It takes years experience as well as education. True, experts often reveal how much is unknown, but that doesn't mean everybody should question if/what they do know.
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I think people are mistaking the "appeal to authority" fallacy with deferring to experts.

While it's good to have a questioning mind, extending skepticism to individuals who have demonstrated expertise in an area and are able to back up their statements is a bridge too far. This is commonly the path of conspiracy theorists and others who can't be reasoned with.
 
someguy01 said:
Still no definition of what makes one a drum expert. Is it like the swung quarter note, you can't define it I'll just know it when I see/hear it?
I am genuine in my curiosity. Several gigging, experienced players have referred to others as questioning an expert but have still given no criteria as to what makes one an expert on drums.

I am asking what the criteria is for the expert label. Is Erskine a Jazz expert? More say than, say, Riley? What are the qualifiers?
If no one can actually answer, just say you don't know and rescind the use of "expert" in relation to drumming.
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With a little thought, it's easy to define, or identify a drum expert. Erskine and Riley have specific expertise, as I imagine as an orthopedic surgeon has specific expertise. If your point is that applying criteria to members of the forum to gain some kind of status, then I agree it's silly and a waste of time.
 
someguy01 said:
Still no definition of what makes one a drum expert. Is it like the swung quarter note, you can't define it I'll just know it when I see/hear it?
I am genuine in my curiosity. Several gigging, experienced players have referred to others as questioning an expert but have still given no criteria as to what makes one an expert on drums.

I am asking what the criteria is for the expert label. Is Erskine a Jazz expert? More say than, say, Riley? What are the qualifiers?
If no one can actually answer, just say you don't know and rescind the use of "expert" in relation to drumming.
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Gee whiz, some of us have to work. It's simple enough to look up the word on dictionary.com: "a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area."

Do you believe nobody has that in the area of drumming? I'll name about a hundred non-famous experts for you, if you want. Why the ridiculous hangup about that?
 
Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:
people also have to remember that asking questions is NOT doubting experience...

if I ask Buddy Rich, or my doctor, to further explain something, it is not a question of their status...it is a curiosity of how they got there. If I am questioning their status, than that is different

if the person being asked is "offended" somehow by the question, then that is something I can't help with.

I guess being a teacher, I expect people to ask me about things, and never perceive questioning as an insult to my experience.

I am also not hardwired to worry about my "status" in anything really...status has never mattered to me
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I'm down with that, but I don't get why it's such a hard concept to realize that you're not going to play quarter notes in jazz swing the same way you would in rock or funk. Damn, I'm a bass player and even I get it :D It's called "style."
 
toddbishop said:
Do you believe nobody has that in the area of drumming? I'll name about a hundred non-famous experts for you, if you want. Why the ridiculous hangup about that?
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Again, no one is saying that.

There is a difference, in kind, between asking for clarification on a particular issue and saying in an accusatory manner "What makes YOU so qualified?".
 
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JimmyM said:
I'm down with that, but I don't get why it's such a hard concept to realize that you're not going to play quarter notes in jazz swing the same way you would in rock or funk. Damn, I'm a bass player and even I get it :D It's called "style."
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I think most people were getting that concept...I think the delivery is what people had more issue with...
 
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