Heel Toe for fast double bass -- Spring Tension and Head Tuning questions

MSmithDW

Junior Member
Hey folks,

I've been trying to master fast double bass rolls for years. My practice had focused solely on single strokes. I'd get up to 110 bpm at most while staying clean and then I'd start to hit a wall. My spring tension on my DW 5000's was as loose as possible. I was on an electronic kit and had tension relatively high on the bass drum head. Recently I switched to an acoustic head with a falam patch and Emad head. The tuning/tension on the head is low, which seems to be the most common. I then increased spring tension on the pedals all the way up. Finally, I switched to double strokes via heel toe. Immediate improvement with speed. My issue though is that I'm not getting enough rebound, which often makes the doubles softer than they should be and often sound a little muddy. Plus, sometimes they just don't work and I kind of have to get into the groove to really force them to work. Like, technique has to be PERFECT to get the double stroke. There's no room for error, but I need a little room.

I don't know how to fix this. I feel like my technique is pretty good and it's a bit more of a settings issue. Increasing tension on the head ruins sound, but without it, it seems like there's so little rebound. Any one have suggestions for a better setup that provides good rebound for heel toe double strokes, and also provides good sound (hard rock, heavy metal, prog metal, etc). I'm open to adjusting pedal or head or whatever magic tricks you got.

Thanks!
 
Hey folks,

I've been trying to master fast double bass rolls for years.

If you practice for years with improper technique, not only will you not progress, you will have to spend even more time unlearning years of bad technique. With muscle memory, learning the wrong way is worse than not learning at all. Fortunately the damage is reversible.
I'm open to adjusting pedal or head or whatever magic tricks you got.

No magic tricks for speed. Proper form is the foundation for everything else required for speed, endurance and control. One tip I can suggest regarding your setup is to maybe back off the spring tension a bit. No need for max tension. I don't own a DW 5000 though, so I don't know exactly how high your pedal tension goes.

One of our forum members beyondbetrayal plays fast, clean heel toe and has a couple of Youtube video tutorials on that.

Just so we're on the same page, when you say you're topping out at 110 BPM, these are 16th notes right?
 
Last edited:
If you practice for years with improper technique, not only will you not progress, you will have to spend even more time unlearning years of bad technique
My point there really was that I think my technique with single strokes was good. They were clean. I just started topping out at how fast I could go with that technique. Likewise, while I'm still improving, I think my heel toe double stroke technique is pretty good, but with my current configuration I'm just not getting any rebound, which is causing me to work harder, not smarter. I want to change that.
No magic tricks for speed
Sorry, I'm not asking for a magic trick on speed. I was asking for suggested settings to maximize rebound. Settings have an impact. A high tension head has different rebound than a low tension head. Likewise on the springs, beater distance from head, beater height, weights on the beater, etc. I'm asking for settings suggestions rather than technique suggestions. Technique I'll continue to practice and hone in and I'm always researching and refining. But right now I don't feel as though I've got the best settings/configuration, which is holding me back at the moment. I have confidence that were I to walk over to a better configured setup, I would play the double stroke rolls better.
Just so we're on the same page, when you say you're topping out at 110 BPM, these are 16th notes right?
I meant setting the metronome to 110 and treating each beep as a quarter note and playing 16th notes in between them.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Sorry mate but the lack of rebound is your worst enemy when it comes to heel toe, so if tightening the bass drum head ruins the sound for you I'm not sure what you can do (other than go out and buy another bass drum which sounds good to you with high head tension).

I've had the exact same experience: no problem when playing on my KD-140 (mesh heads naturally have greater rebound to begin with) to not even being able to do heel toe when trying out ANYTHING with a loose batter head.
 
Last edited:
To be honest man, don't say sorry. That's exactly what I needed to hear. I would have spent 40+ hours in research and experimentation (and I'm sure some money) on a wasted journey. Now knowing that, I can focus my time on researching tricks to getting the right bass sound out of my batter head tuned tighter.

Thanks man!
 
Hey folks,

I've been trying to master fast double bass rolls for years. My practice had focused solely on single strokes. I'd get up to 110 bpm at most while staying clean and then I'd start to hit a wall. My spring tension on my DW 5000's was as loose as possible. I was on an electronic kit and had tension relatively high on the bass drum head. Recently I switched to an acoustic head with a falam patch and Emad head. The tuning/tension on the head is low, which seems to be the most common. I then increased spring tension on the pedals all the way up. Finally, I switched to double strokes via heel toe. Immediate improvement with speed. My issue though is that I'm not getting enough rebound, which often makes the doubles softer than they should be and often sound a little muddy. Plus, sometimes they just don't work and I kind of have to get into the groove to really force them to work. Like, technique has to be PERFECT to get the double stroke. There's no room for error, but I need a little room.

I don't know how to fix this. I feel like my technique is pretty good and it's a bit more of a settings issue. Increasing tension on the head ruins sound, but without it, it seems like there's so little rebound. Any one have suggestions for a better setup that provides good rebound for heel toe double strokes, and also provides good sound (hard rock, heavy metal, prog metal, etc). I'm open to adjusting pedal or head or whatever magic tricks you got.

Thanks!
This works, tried it,see results right away, Russ is a great educator & drummer good luck !
 
I found that for me, heel toe motion was much easier to learn with a tight batter and loose spring tension. It was easier to feel and control the rebound at first as the head was doing the majority of the rebounding. Once I became familiar with the feel and comfortable doing the motions I was able to loosen the batter and tighten the springs back up.
 
This works, tried it,see results right away, Russ is a great educator & drummer good luck !
Man that’s freaky I was just thinking how it’s like tap dancing and sure enough the dude talks about that- I took tap dancing too. Does a great job explaining and I like how he used his hats.
 
Man that’s freaky I was just thinking how it’s like tap dancing and sure enough the dude talks about that- I took tap dancing too. Does a great job explaining and I like how he used his hats.
Glad you liked it GetA , check out his triple your hand speed video also a homerun !
 
Heel toe doubles for 16ths at 110 bpm? You are fighting the ocean there my friend. The real payoff with heel toe comes at much higher tempos

Realistically, no metal player uses heel toe for double bass at less than 200 or maybe 180 ish. They do it on tight bass drum heads and they trigger the kick sound live and on record.

I'd highly suggest concentrating on singles with the full leg motion and then the ankle motion for 6 months minimum. When you can play 200 on a medium setting with normally tensioned heads then your feet are in shape to being the next step.

Good luck.
 
This works, tried it,see results right away, Russ is a great educator & drummer good luck !
Videos with clickbaity titles like "Triple your speed in ten seconds" are such BS. As if any awesome double bass player took this route. He has the same type of video for Moeller (triple your hand speed).

This is a disservice to young players who think that everything has a "technique" or a trick to it. Let me let you in on a golden secret. It's about hard work and constant dedication to improvement.

Imagine being a 160 lb guy asking the biggest and strongest guy at the gym what his "technique" was for a 400 lb bench press. This is what some of these videos are like. Totally missing the point as to what actually makes greatness.

The answer is "Be REALLY strong" BTW.
 
Sorry i Disagree !! i think you were watching a different video than i did ! #1) Russ NEVER SAID NOT TO WORK HARD AT THIS ! # 2 this technical method not TRICK was taught to him , DAVE WECKYL ,NEIL PEART, MANY OTHER PROS ETC BY FRED GRUBER ever heard of him ? #3 how is it a DISSERVICE to a young player When A pro Drummer takes the time out to share his or her skills to help make someone a better drummer! ANALISIS : I think RUSS IS an excellent educator , this video showed how a professional ,musical,CARING DRUMMER, Combining Physical body mechanics , with drumming theory , musicality , to help others with a hardworking method to better their drumming SKILLS !!!!

BTW : i watch videos on drummers , not strongmen .
 
Hey I can do that with my stick to-"the anatomy of time and space and how it flows through you". Words of wisdom. You can make that stick appear hard or floppy.
 
I think it's the continuous motion and getting the most out of the motion-that's the gist. Like you don't have to stomp it like he does but still same motion. Like I play continuous motion but I'm heel up. Still the motion is similar cause my hill goes down in that fulcrum between ankle and pad of foot (beater strikes rebounds) and then my forward toes motion gets the free hits (like playing a closed drum roll dribbling on the head) so can play doubles or triplets. You just continuous keep pumping it or can slide or swivel on pedal foot plate. It still like tap dancing-one it's a stomp shuffle the other more shuffling along or a shuffle kick. Ta-da ROFL.
 
I like George's video here and the way he plays, but everyone's foot/ankles and brain is different, may or may not work for you


and I like how it does not sound like speed metal double bass drums that sound like butt gasses popping out/ bad 4 cyl mufflers
 
It’s really still the same motion heel up or down cause the height of heel irrelevant- when I do heel up- i dribble it the same motion just shift angles because it’s the pad of foot and not whole foot. I’ve had stiff ankles and limited range of ankle motion breaking both my ankles when a teen but it’s better now than ever so I can play heel down now. I couldn’t for years. But I prefer heel up - also just my pad I get free strokes sliding and swiveling too. Just a slight motion of thigh and then foot swivel can get it
 
Sorry i Disagree !! i think you were watching a different video than i did ! #1) Russ NEVER SAID NOT TO WORK HARD AT THIS ! # 2 this technical method not TRICK was taught to him , DAVE WECKYL ,NEIL PEART, MANY OTHER PROS ETC BY FRED GRUBER ever heard of him ? #3 how is it a DISSERVICE to a young player When A pro Drummer takes the time out to share his or her skills to help make someone a better drummer! ANALISIS : I think RUSS IS an excellent educator , this video showed how a professional ,musical,CARING DRUMMER, Combining Physical body mechanics , with drumming theory , musicality , to help others with a hardworking method to better their drumming SKILLS !!!!

BTW : i watch videos on drummers , not strongmen .
LOL, I was speaking specifically about building up strength in your double bass singles not stick technique. If someone can only play 16th at 110 bpm then they have no business doing heel toe. I played faster than that as a kid on my first day just by running on the pedals.

And yes, I've heard of Freddie Gruber. During my two years of studying with Joe Morello he used to talk about how Freddie was Buddy's gofer lol.

You're speaking to someone who's studied with: Mike Mangini, Tommy Igoe, Jim Chapin, Joe Morello, Rod Morgenstein and now Dave DiCenso.

Maybe you should chill out before you start screaming like some 13 year old..
 
LOL, I was speaking specifically about building up strength in your double bass singles not stick technique. If someone can only play 16th at 110 bpm then they have no business doing heel toe. I played faster than that as a kid on my first day just by running on the pedals.

And yes, I've heard of Freddie Gruber. During my two years of studying with Joe Morello he used to talk about how Freddie was Buddy's gofer lol.

You're speaking to someone who's studied with: Mike Mangini, Tommy Igoe, Jim Chapin, Joe Morello, Rod Morgenstein and now Dave DiCenso.

Maybe you should chill out before you start screaming like some 13 if
 
Back
Top