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  #121  
Old 01-10-2006, 10:58 PM
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lfdy lfdy is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian_dude101
He sings in a lot of songs. More in their newer stuff than in their older stuff. For example, As I Am, The Test That Stumped Them All, and In the Name of God, to name a few.
Ah, i didn't know that. I'll have to check it out.
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  #122  
Old 01-11-2006, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

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Originally Posted by lfdy
Ah, i didn't know that. I'll have to check it out.
He also sings in New Mellinnium, Home, and Lines in the Sand, to name a few.
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  #123  
Old 01-17-2006, 11:58 PM
tymile tymile is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

i, as well, expected more positive feedback on mike portnoy.

dream theater as a whole definitely does have an amazing amount of talent (with the exception of the singer). i actualy find it amazing that so many people have so much negative feedback on him.

dream theater does not rip off rush. there may be one or two songs that sound alike, or whatever, but, as a whole, it cant be said that dream theater rips off rush. when was the last time rush did an overture? and a honky-tonk breakdown? ive heard it said many times that neal peart is one of the only people who could outplay mike portnoy. he cant. mike portnoy could play rush songs, but i cant imagine peart playing DT songs. and dream theater as a whole has a much better sound, and is way more technical. (with the exception of the singers... both of which could... use work?)

and, i completely agree with whats posted above me, with the exception of the statement: "I guess Peart is a much better musician, but Mike is a better drummer." Mike is a better drummer. however, he is also the better musician. mike portnoy writes at least half of the lyrics and a third of the music on all of the dream theater albums. he also plays with neal morse, transatlantic, and liquid tension experiment. aside from that, in many DT songs they blend so many different types and styles of music. mike portnoy is an incredibly diverse drummer, and can play a variety of styles without a problem.

peart definitely is an amazing drummer and has potential, but portnoy tops him.
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  #124  
Old 01-18-2006, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymile
i actualy find it amazing that so many people have so much negative feedback on him.
Eh, I just really can't take the whole approach. It all seems very stiff and intellectualised, while similarly dense and complex playing like you'll see out of Danny Carey or Thomas Haake has more flow, purpose and passion. IMHO.

Quote:
dream theater does not rip off rush.
They have clearly ripped off Tool, RATM and Pantera though ;)

Quote:
peart definitely is an amazing drummer and has potential
I think you have to credit him with a lot more than potential these days, he's something of a legend in a way that Portnoy certainly isn't yet. Peart defined a style of playing, if anything Portnoy has merely refined it a little.
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  #125  
Old 01-18-2006, 01:24 AM
tymile tymile is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

i can see where youre coming from. a lot of people dont like the whole technical idea and are much more into the groove of it. but i think that portnoy definitely is a more technical drummer than peart, whether you think technical outweighs the passion and the feel of the music, i think thats a matter of personal choice.

as for ripping off other bands, though... dream theaters first album debuted in 1989, while rage wasnt even together until 1992. not saying that they couldnt rip off rage in their later years, but they had a lot of material by that time without even ever hearing of the band. and i have never heard anything that sounds like a tool or pantera ripoff, nor have i ever heard anyone say that before.

and i agree that mike portnoy takes influence from neal peart. but that doesnt mean that he cant be a better drummer than him. but, again, that comes down to personal choice - which style appeals more personally to you.

and i guess saying neal peart had "potential" was misused. what i meant was he had a lot of talent, but mike portnoy is still better.
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  #126  
Old 01-18-2006, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Portnoy is really good.

But he will never equal the popularity that Neil has.
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What if the hokey pokey is all that its about?
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  #127  
Old 01-18-2006, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymile
as for ripping off other bands, though... dream theaters first album debuted in 1989, while rage wasnt even together until 1992. not saying that they couldnt rip off rage in their later years, but they had a lot of material by that time without even ever hearing of the band. and i have never heard anything that sounds like a tool or pantera ripoff, nor have i ever heard anyone say that before.
You've got your dates a bit wrong with RATM, IIRC their first album was out in 1991 which put them working together as a group well earlier than that.

But that's a bit beside the point. You've never heard anything that sounds like a Tool or Pantera ripoff?

Oh boy have I got an MP3 for you...

What you hear in this is:

"By Demons Be Driven" by Pantera vs "The Test That Stumped Them All" by DT
"46&2" by Tool vs "Home" by DT.
"46&2" by Tool (again!) vs "The Great Debate" by DT.

There's more, of course. The clip from "Home" is shortly followed by a fairly obvious RATM crib, etc. But this goes for a minute and a half, which seems about long enough.

Worth mentioning is that not only are these cribs very similar in terms of actual notes and phrasing, they're also very similar in their purpose and positions in the songs. "By Demons Be Driven" has the chorus riff stolen for a chorus, "Home" uses the intro bass line from 46&2 for its intro bass line, "The Great Debate" uses a strikingly similar section to the one in "46&2" for a similar purpose at a similar position structurally.
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  #128  
Old 01-18-2006, 06:57 PM
OllieM OllieM is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

joe morris, all i can say about u is your a mug!!! HOW CAN U WALK OUT OF A DT CONCERT GOD DAMMIT!!! i saw them last october, i then triued to get tickets for the second night but failed :( anyways mike portnoy is true talent, anyone who takes digs at his kits are stupid, because if u look at the new albino monster, i will see its actually quite simple... on one side 3 toms, 2 floors, 2 bass, 1 snare (octoban and timbales) and some other goodies. on the other he has 1 tom 1 bass 2 floors!!! no octobans, no gong bass... take a look at this...

http://www.tama.com/artists/featured/portnoy.asp
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  #129  
Old 01-18-2006, 07:01 PM
OllieM OllieM is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by finnhiggins
Eh, I just really can't take the whole approach. It all seems very stiff and intellectualised, while similarly dense and complex playing like you'll see out of Danny Carey or Thomas Haake has more flow, purpose and passion. IMHO.



They have clearly ripped off Tool, RATM and Pantera though ;)



I think you have to credit him with a lot more than potential these days, he's something of a legend in a way that Portnoy certainly isn't yet. Peart defined a style of playing, if anything Portnoy has merely refined it a little.
well u dont no much, they havent ripped of any band...

they make the same kind of music, and portnoy has recreated the old, which the younger generation havnt heard much of, and brought it to them, think of it as covering up old music by making it sound new, if it wasnt for dt i wouldnt never of nown about rush or tool... BUT one thing that we can all be sure about it, that dt are better than tool and ratm because there still together!!!!
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  #130  
Old 01-19-2006, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Well finn, considering the odd meter of both of those tunes, there really isn't much room for too much creativity, and still having it sound like rock music. Prog is prog.

The difference between DT and Pantera (I like Pantera better, btw), is that DT actually thinks of the stuff and writes it out in musical form and structure. Pantera just takes a hit off the old bong and says, yeah, that sounds really good, let's do that. I'm not saying that makes DT better, I'm just saying, it makes them less likely to be the one's ripping off anyone else.

Also the indian sounding riffs (or whatever it is) are fairly stereo-typical sounding eastern music. It is just a coincidence that they sound similar. Our western ears hear that kind of music and it "all just kinda sounds the same".

Now the most important part. Even if DT DID rip it off, the DT interpretations are much more lavish and interesting sounding, while the Tool part is more commercial and radio-friendly sounding.

I don't get your point about Tool having such great chart success and DT doesn't...so what?

I watched Budokhan again and found yet another thing impressive about Portnoy. I would encourage all aspiring metal wannabees to watch how he plays his cymbals. He doesn't bash them in with huge strokes, yet they are still loud and powerful sounding. hmmmm, I wonder how many cymbals Mike breaks, and what his opinion is about "hard hitters".
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  #131  
Old 01-19-2006, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Well finn, considering the odd meter of both of those tunes, there really isn't much room for too much creativity, and still having it sound like rock music. Prog is prog.
Are you kidding? There's no fewer ways of playing rock in 7/8 (the case for most of the stuff here) than in 4/4. Not only that, even if there was then there's a limitation on how you can phrase there's still no excuse for basically playing the same parts. Which is happening in all of these examples. When Tom Morello swiped a bit of "Walk This Way" on the first Audioslave album I seriously doubt that anybody would say "Oh, he's limited by the fact that he's playing in 4/4 so he had to make a riff using the same notes in a very similar order and rhythm". They said "Hey, that's Walk This Way!".

EDIT: Also, most of those aren't actually in the same time sig as the original, or if they are it's 4/4. "The test that stumped them all" is in 7+7+6 while the Pantera track is in 4/4, both the bass riffs are 4/4, and the other 46&2 crib is in 4/4 as well. No excuse there!

Quote:
The difference between DT and Pantera (I like Pantera better, btw), is that DT actually thinks of the stuff and writes it out in musical form and structure. Pantera just takes a hit off the old bong and says, yeah, that sounds really good, let's do that. I'm not saying that makes DT better, I'm just saying, it makes them less likely to be the one's ripping off anyone else.
Or it would, if every album I've listened to so far didn't have a lot of very obvious cribs from albums that members of DT regularly reference as influences. Portnoy has referenced Pantera and Tool as influences in a number of interviews, and talked about them in some depth. I doubt he's unfamiliar with the songs in question here, given that they're two albums that are considered by many to be the creative apex of each of the given bands...

Quote:
Also the indian sounding riffs (or whatever it is) are fairly stereo-typical sounding eastern music. It is just a coincidence that they sound similar. Our western ears hear that kind of music and it "all just kinda sounds the same".
No way. That's not an "indian sounding" riff, that's a Tool-sounding riff. If you can find me an Indian song that sounds like that I'll be very surprised, I listen to quite a lot of Indian and Middle Eastern music and am usually pretty capable of telling a riff in a given genre apart from another one. Not only that, both riffs are played on the same instrument (bass) in a similar neck position (up near the 12th fret) and are used for the same purpose in the song (intro).

As for the coincidence idea.. I'd maybe buy that, if these kind of things didn't keep turning up. For crying out loud, there's two cribs from the same song (46&2) off one of Mike Portnoy's favourite albums (Aenima). I don't think Portnoy would hear those bits and not think of Tool, given that he clearly loves the album (read some interviews), the DT stuff came out subsequent to that album and they sound nearly exactly alike. If somebody in my band played a riff like that I'd say "That's a Tool rip-off!". You think I know that album better than Mike does?

That's not saying that Tool are fantastically original and DT are clearly slavish imitations. I can show you a similar example of Tool ripping off Rush (intro to Lateralus = swung version of bridge from Test For Echo on guitar) but they do it considerably less regularly and in a much less obvious manner. They don't, for example, grab whole sections of songs, change a couple of notes and then use them for the same function in their own song.

The worst DT offender yet is that one from "The Great Debate" which not only borrows phrasing but also vocal inflections (I can virtually hear Maynard James Keenan singing "Life-to-save-life" like that, and it's not a very typical vocal approach for James LaBrie) and even structure - they use a riff under the vocals in a similar way, then punch it out staccato into a stop. The whole song is very Tool-influenced, but that bit is just directly lifted.

Quote:
Now the most important part. Even if DT DID rip it off, the DT interpretations are much more lavish and interesting sounding, while the Tool part is more commercial and radio-friendly sounding.
We'll have to disagree on this point. I think the DT versions sound like cheesy prog nonsense while the originals are actually quite good. But which you like better is a bit beside the point, they're clearly grabbing whole chunks of stuff. If they want to play covers, why don't they play covers?

Quote:
I don't get your point about Tool having such great chart success and DT doesn't...so what?
That was just in response to the suggestion that DT are "Bringing music like that to the masses". It's arguable that DT bring a lot less of that kind of music to the masses given that Tool's last album entered at #1 in the charts and DT's was what... #42 or something?

No other argument. It just seemed like a silly idea. "Oh yeah, that #42 album was totally bringing one of the better known songs from that other multi-platinum album to the masses, and stuff".

Last edited by finnhiggins; 01-19-2006 at 11:16 AM.
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  #132  
Old 01-19-2006, 11:41 AM
Stu_Strib
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Actual time signatures aside, any odd meters and phrasing generally sound homogenous to me on these prog rock albums.

As for the Indian stuff. It probably isn't anywhere near authentic. It is more likely what Tool, DT, and the West in general THINKS indian music sounds like.

Coincidentally, Tool's logo is written with Arabic script, but it says "lamamel" in Arabic. To the untrained, it looks all middle-easterny though. That's my point about the Indian stuff.

I dunno. Your points are well put, but I just find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a purist (and, yes, pretentious at times) Prog band that are all HIGHLY trained musicians at great schools would look to Pantera and Tool for inspiration. Maybe these are not-so-subtle tips 'o the hat to the more mainstream guys? Even then, why wouldn't they just rip-off the more mainstream riffs, like Walk, or Cowboys?
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  #133  
Old 01-19-2006, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
I dunno. Your points are well put, but I just find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a purist (and, yes, pretentious at times) Prog band that are all HIGHLY trained musicians at great schools would look to Pantera and Tool for inspiration. Maybe these are not-so-subtle tips 'o the hat to the more mainstream guys? Even then, why wouldn't they just rip-off the more mainstream riffs, like Walk, or Cowboys?
They're quite open about being inspired by both bands, actually. Go have a read of some old Portnoy interviews.

What do you find harder to believe - that DT would be comfortable doing the occasional quote of other band's stuff or that they would be oblivious to the fact that they're lifting whole sections from some of their favourite albums?

EDIT: Oh, and given that Tool are about the nearest thing out there to popular 70s-style prog (along with The Mars Volta) I'd be quite surprised if DT weren't into them. DT sound like an 80s prog band, Tool sound like a 70s prog band mixed up with The Melvins.
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  #134  
Old 01-19-2006, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

I guess I can't see it objectively, because I really can't get into Tool at all (forced myself to listen to every LP and EP). I can ALMOST get into Dream Theater, until after the 20th minute of the second song, when they've already played every lick 3 times already. My brother loves them. I think he's lack of musical knowledge gives him a false sense of 'awesomeness' about them (that goes for any Prog band really).

Good analogy about 70s prog vs. 80s prog.

One thing for sure, Prog folks need to work on their vocals.
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  #135  
Old 01-19-2006, 01:01 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

I honestly don't know why people argue about these things. It's a matter of opinion, and it's darn near impossible to change someone's opinion. Give it a rest.

As for my opinion, I see it as: there are so many bands and so many songs out there, someone's bound to copy someone else by complete accident. The fact that DT is influenced by many types of music and plays such a wide variety only increases their chance of these accidental copies.

My 2 cents
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  #136  
Old 01-19-2006, 08:18 PM
tymile tymile is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

exactly.

and to not respect a band, or any of the members of that band, because their music seems similar to that of another band, is rediculous.

dt portnoy is completely right.
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  #137  
Old 01-19-2006, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Yeah, but I don't get the whole "DT is influenced by Tool" comment. DT has been around for so much longer, it's almost sacrilege. Can a much older band be 'influenced' by bands that came after them, in the same vein? If anything, I'd say it would be an homage to the younger Tool and likes.

This would be like saying the Stones are influenced by the Hives. (maybe not that extreme, but hopefully my point is understood).
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  #138  
Old 01-19-2006, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Yeah, but I don't get the whole "DT is influenced by Tool" comment. DT has been around for so much longer, it's almost sacrilege. Can a much older band be 'influenced' by bands that came after them, in the same vein? If anything, I'd say it would be an homage to the younger Tool and likes.

This would be like saying the Stones are influenced by the Hives. (maybe not that extreme, but hopefully my point is understood).
DT hasn't been around for "So much longer" than most of these bands. DT had their first album out in... what... 88? 89? Pantera had albums out around that time, albeit hair-metal. Tool's first EP came out in '92, and they hit it big in '94. DT's first notable album (Images & Words) was what... 91? There's 3-4 years in it, tops.

As for the idea that an older band can't possibly be influenced by newer acts, how do you explain Miles Davis? He was already a legend fully decades before his interest in rock music drove him to start playing fusion in the late 60s. A key influence in this was Hendrix, who was clearly a considerably younger act than Miles. Similarly, Radiohead made a notable move towards playing electronic music mid-career, influenced by the likes of Aphex Twin. ?uestlove talks openly about how the programming on The Pharcyde's "Labcabincalifornia" made him revamp his entire style - after The Roots had already hit it big. DT clearly did make mid-career shift at several points in different directions. Their early material was much more Rush/Queensrych oriented, but with Awake they added more elements of 90s metal. Post 1996 they've started sounding more like Tool on a number of occasions.

Denying people the right to be influenced by the music they hear just because they're famous is a bit silly, don't you think? The Stones/Hives comparison is silly because the Hives are trying to sound like the Stones were some forty years ago. DT only started recording stuff that sounded very similar to Tool well after Tool had released multi-platinum albums.

I don't see why everybody is so touchy about this particular point. Portnoy is, as a player, very open about his influences and all of these bands are on the list. Do you want me to find quotes? If somebody cites Miles Davis as an influence and then uses the bass line from "So What" in a song do you consider it an accident?
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  #139  
Old 01-19-2006, 09:31 PM
tymile tymile is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

so, are you saying, that just because a band doesnt play the same exact style in every single song and album (which almosts defeats the idea of prog already) they have become influenced by newer bands?

so, because dream theater made a shift, they were seddenly copying tool? youre saying that every time they took a turn in direction in their type of music, it had to be because they were "copying" another band.

sorry.

no two of dream theaters album have the same sound. each is such a blend and mix of styles that it would be hard to classify it as just one genre. and your comment about awake being "affected by 90s metal."

awake was put out in the nineties. go figure.

and, as stu strib said earlier, the fact that tool came out so much later than drea, theater (and three to four years is a lot of time) can so act as proof that dream theater did not copy them. when an already big band hears this up and coming band's brand new debut cd, rarely will they go try and copy it.

what do you think, mike portnoy and john petrucci were sitting around one day, listening to the brand new tool album, and mike goes, "hey! these tool kids are pretty good. lets blatantly copy them because we only have an unsurpassed amount of talent and have come up with plenty of completely original material ourselves. hell, we have another decade at least worth of original material, and we can outplay most bands around. so, we MUST COPY TOOL."

sorry, thats not the way it works. from the sounds of it, tool takes an amazing amount of inluence and idea from dream theater.

the fact is, two bands can sound alike. almost flawlessly alike. it doesnt have to mean that one copied the other. especially on a level with dream theater.
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  #140  
Old 01-19-2006, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Something just popped into my head.

Now, I'm not saying that Dream Theater did copy any body, but even if they were to copy someone, who cares?!? It's perfectly legal to copy other bands. Just look at the millions of cover songs out there. And like I said before, it's easy to copy by accident. Particularly if you have certain influences (Every band has their influences, no one grew up and decided to play music without listening to any music first). If you have influences, it's easier to copy without even realizing it because that's what you grew up listening to and it's something that you like.

For example, I am influenced by (among many others) Megadeth and Dream Theater, but that doesn't mean that if I decide to play a cool tom groove, I must be copying Megadeth's "Trust" and Dream Theater's "Home" or "Metropolis Pt. 1". It just means that I like that style and want to use it in my song. If it happens to be too much like one of the aforementioned songs, then oh well...who cares?

I just don't see the point in arguing about this. If you insist that Dream Theater are talentless copy-cats, you have all the right in the world to think that.
If you insist that they are all original, you have equally as much right to think that. Both are a matter of opinion, and if you're hell-bent on trying to change people's opinions, I got one thing to say to you: Good Luck, because it's impossible.

There's 2 cents more for you.
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  #141  
Old 01-19-2006, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymile
and, as stu strib said earlier, the fact that tool came out so much later than drea, theater (and three to four years is a lot of time) can so act as proof that dream theater did not copy them. when an already big band hears this up and coming band's brand new debut cd, rarely will they go try and copy it.
It happens, regularly. I cited several examples in my reply to Stu. It is less common with bands like, say, The White Stripes. Mostly because they form because they want to play a certain style of music, and they're not that open to change. However in jazz and progressive genres it's extremely common. Yes changed their style in the 80s to align more with current musical trends started by other bands. So did King Crimson. This is also true of most of the virtuoso shred guitarists that I'm sure Petrucci is a fan of, too. And Frank Zappa, who Portnoy is a big fan of.

Quote:
what do you think, mike portnoy and john petrucci were sitting around one day, listening to the brand new tool album, and mike goes, "hey! these tool kids are pretty good. lets blatantly copy them because we only have an unsurpassed amount of talent and have come up with plenty of completely original material ourselves. hell, we have another decade at least worth of original material, and we can outplay most bands around. so, we MUST COPY TOOL."
No, I think they were jamming in a practice room one day, maybe they had a little riff on 46&2 and some interesting melodies developed over the top of it. They had a chat about it and decided that they didn't have a problem with the similarity. Or that they were looking for a chorus for a song and somebody said "Hey, what we need here is a staccato feel like on By Demons Be Driven" and they busted one out quickly, liked it and wrote it down. Maybe later they noticed how remarkably similar that section was, but I reckon they either consider it a homage or just liked it enough to make the borrowing justified.

I've been in bands that have done this with things. It's not neccesarily a bad thing, indeed it can actually be pretty awesome if you do it with something from outside your genre. There's a bit of Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" where one of the riffs is a dead ringer rhythmically for the head melody of "Ravayah" by John Zorn. Not a rhythm I've heard anywhere else, personally, and there's other parts of the Thordendal album that appear quite Zorn influenced. Could be accidental, but it's cool even if it's deliberate because one song is an avant-garde klezmer/jazz piece and the other is progressive death metal. Mixing and quoting is perfectly acceptable, if done well.

I just don't like the way that DT borrow pieces from bands in a similar genre and use them with similar inflections, on the same instruments, in similar places in their songs. That just strikes me as a bridge too far. There's paying homage, there's putting your own spin on things and then there's the kind of stuff that DT do all over the place.

But to deny that they're borrowing sections of music at all? Come off it mate. Everybody does it. Particularly muso people who play a lot of solos - it's called "quoting". The difference is, most people try to modify things enough that it's not immediately obvious if you're familiar with the source. It took me a while to peg the swiped riff from Test For Echo by Rush in the intro to Lateralus by Tool for a couple of reasons:

1) Swung rather than straight.
2) The tone is different
3) The tempo is a bit different.
4) The purpose in the song is very different (intro, rather than bridge).

That's still a pretty blatent bit of borrowing, but DT don't seem to want to obfuscate even that far.

Quote:
sorry, thats not the way it works. from the sounds of it, tool takes an amazing amount of inluence and idea from dream theater.
Now that I doubt.

Ok fact time.

Fact: If you read interviews, Portnoy has repeatedly cited Tool as an influence. Ditto Pantera.

Fact: If you read interviews, not one member of Tool even describes a passing enjoyment of Dream Theater. In fact, there's numerous references out of Adam Jones to hating technical guitar virtuosos, which would suggest that he's not much of a fan. Danny Carey has listed a bunch of contemporary drummers of whom he's a fan, including guys like Sim Cain and Fish (of Fishbone fame). Portnoy isn't on the list.

Fact: After Tool released Aenima, Dream Theater released two songs which use near identical sounding sections from 46&2 (see MP3) below. I have heard no other songs written prior to the Tool song which have anything like as close a resemblance.

Fact: Most other technical bands do not see the same "Accidental" occurrance of similar phrases from other bands in the same genre. See: Fredrik Thordendal. His stuff sounds like him. Ditto Opeth. Ditto Death. Ditto Strapping Young Lad. Dream Theater's stuff sounds like other people, regularly. For crying out loud, there's a song on "Six degrees" which is a dead ringer for a very well-known Peter Gabriel song. I'll give you five points if you can name both songs.

If you can't see a pattern here then I'd suggest it's because you're blinded by admiration rather than because of the absence of one.
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  #142  
Old 01-20-2006, 12:16 AM
tymile tymile is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

in response to dt portnoy - i know that its perfectly legal to blatantly rip off another band, but its really lame. it shows no taste and says you cant think of ideas for yourself. covers are one thing, but passing off someone elses musical ideas as your own is just really low. thats why this subject is so touchy and heated.

finnighans - first things first, i admire how youre so knowledgeable about every subject that has been mentioned in this conversation. i think you know a rediculous amount about music and bands, and it pays off.

but, as dt portnoy said before, it is a matter of opinion. i dont think theres any way to know for sure which band copied which, or which band insipred which part of what song. think it could be difficult for the members of each band to answer that question before. dt portnoy said earlier that, possibly, a band could be inspired by another, and therefore could end up playing their styles subconsciously, and end up with something near the same end result.

for instance... and the greatest instance i know of this.

symphony x blatantly copies dream theater. its rediculous. the song "pharoah" by symphony x has a bass solo while all the other instrumentalists are playing a weird synchronized stacatto melody. this is EXACTLY like the breakdown in metropolis pt. 1. also, symphony x has copied song names, and even musical structural ideas, like you mentioned before.

now, the reason i used this as an instance, is because, theres no way to tell wether the reason so many things sound so similar is because they ripped the idea off or they were so heavily inspired that many of the ideas in their head came out sounding like their insiration. although they all say that dream theater is one of their biggest inspirations, it is still uncertain wether it was blatantly copied, or just subconcious. however i do feel that similarity in that much quantity and of that degree cant be completely unintentional.

the same goes for dream theater and tool. although dream theater came first, it is not completely unreasonable to feel that maybe dream theater may have copied ideas from tool. however, it is a matter of opinion when it comes to th e question inspiration vs. the stealing of ideas.

theres no real way to be sure.
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  #143  
Old 01-20-2006, 02:11 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Back on to the subject of bands ripping off other bands i recently read quote by Buddy Rich ( I think) well anyways it said
"The best musicians are thieves who don't get caught"
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  #144  
Old 01-20-2006, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

OK, this is getting rediculous. First of all, this post is not meant to be a bashing post, but I can't gurantee it won't turn into one.

OK, here we go:
First, if "theres no real way to be sure," then why don't you give it a rest? You can hate DT all you want, that's fine by me. But please save it for a DT bashing thread or something, not this thread which is supposed to be for positive input.

Second, even if DT does copy people, they are still one of the most original bands I have ever heard.

Third, the only bashing here is not by CarterB. Right now, it's by all of us (yes, me too). I just don't see how you can come into this thread and profess about how (and I quote) "lame" DT is and not consider it bashing.

Next, "there's putting your own spin on things and then there's the kind of stuff that DT do all over the place." I really think "all over the place" is going too far.

Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands.
(OK, that was harsh, but my point is, you have your opinion. Why do feel the need to try to change other's. You've made your point, and no opinions have been changed. Put a sock in it.)
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  #145  
Old 01-20-2006, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTportnoyDT
Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands.
(OK, that was harsh, but my point is, you have your opinion. Why do feel the need to try to change other's. You've made your point, and no opinions have been changed. Put a sock in it.)
Eh, I don't need to research - it comes knocking. I teach drums, and if you teach drums you'll learn a lot of things from your students:

1) Travis barker is, like, totally the best drummer on the planet.
2) No, Joey Jordison is.
3) No, it's Mike Portnoy.

As such I've heard a fair bit of all three. Oh, Danny Carey goes on the list too, but I actually like Tool. Anyway, back to the list above. I've owned albums with all of them on, because I have people who pay me who want to know more about what these guys are doing. It's hard to teach something you don't know about, so I listen, learn and work out how to teach it back to people.

Portnoy is, BTW, a very capable drummer. I won't dispute that. But that's not the issue, so I don't really feel there's any major bashing going on here.

Along the way I've run into a whole lot of things that sound, to my ears, exactly like other pieces of music released before the songs in question. I don't really like that. To me, music is like writing. If you write an article that IS another person's article (sell somebody elses work as your own) then you get sued for copyright infringement. If you take somebody elses article and generally re-write it in your own words while clipping the odd paragraph here and there out and making minor changes you get into trouble for plagiarism, which is not the same but still seriously frowned upon.

But if you read an article by somebody else, reflect on it, do some more research and then write a piece on the same subject? No problem. Happens every day. So I don't have a problem with reworking, extending or being inspired by another person's work, but I do feel that sometimes DT do cross the plagiarism line. Only just. But still.

And ultimately, where's the problem in disagreement in a discussion? We could have a thread where everybody just shows up and says "Hey, what about that Portnoy guy, eh? Awesome" and then goes away, or we could have some conflict but actually have a conversation on the subject. As long as everybody stays at least moderately civil we should be fine. I did get the claws out a bit down the thread, but you'll note they're away now and I'm doing my best to argue from an informed position rather than just saying "DT SUX HA!".
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  #146  
Old 01-20-2006, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

I must say that you make some very good points here, finn. I agree that in writing and such, plagiarism is not welcomed, but this isn't writing. Sure, you're writing music, but that's way different than writing a book or newspaper article. Everybody takes influence from someone somewhere along the way, and that usually means that you are going to use some rhythms from your idols. Even if you fully intend to borrow the rhythms, I don't consider that to be a bad thing. The quote of Buddy above couldn't be more true, in my eyes.

As an example, look at Metallica. They are one of the founders of Metal as we know it today. They're highly origional and highly respected (by many people, but they have their enimies), and they made an entire 2-CD album consisting of nothing but other people's work. Using someone's idea is simply a way of showing respect and showing that you like that particular idea. If someone used my idea, I would take that as a great compliment.

And even if DT does copy heavily, they have many more songs and ideas that were all their own.
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  #147  
Old 01-20-2006, 04:29 AM
tymile tymile is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

now, as is probably already well known, i am a huge DT fan. and even more so for mike portnoy. but i need to stop a second to reflect because of what dt portnoy said.

naturally as a dt fan, im on your side. it seems me and dt portnoy are allies in this conversation. but i disagree with his second latest post.

as you well know, ive havent been bashing at all, and ive just been defending DT and having one hell of a debate with finn.

i started out against finn because he seemed so pitted against mike portnoy and dt and had so many bad things to say about them. i started out way against finn. but ive learned that he knows what hes talking about... its his job. as ive said before.... he knows his stuff.

that said....
"Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands."
i dont think that finn is "bashing." hes using his vast knowledge (as sarcastic as that sounds) to bring up points. as much as i disagree with the points he brings up, i still very much respect him and the way hes so educated on the subject. any point he brings up has enough evidence that it can be justified... and its not some supid unjustified statement, like.... OMGOMG PORTNOY SUXZZz LOL!!2111!!1 he obviously knows way more than his share about music. and that by no means makes him a "loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands"

but dont worry dt portnoy: im still on your side.

me and dt portnoy still think mike portnoy and dream theater are completely original and own tool by far.

i think i can speak for the both of us when i say that in our opinion (and thousands others) dream theater is one of the most original and talented bands of all time. and theres been no opinion changing here. dream theater still owns.
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  #148  
Old 01-20-2006, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Yeah, the whole "loser with nothing better to do..." was going overboard. Finn, as I have said, does make some very good points, and is very highly educated on the matter. But I still don't get why we are still going on about this. I could argue my case forever (sure, I'd end up losing), and no matter what I said, I would never change anyone's mind. The same goes for arguing against me, my opinion will never change. We've all made our points, and I know what finn is saying, I just don't agree with him, and I don't think that opinion will ever change.

P.S. Sorry again for the loser comment. That was a bit harsh.
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  #149  
Old 01-20-2006, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Well now that I caught back up, I'd like to reiterate my main point; Dream Theater came first and there really isn't anything like them. Yeah I know the 80s had King Crimson and Rush and others, but Dream Theater is like the next generation of Proggers after the 70s and 80s stuff. Tool is a watered down, more radio friendly version, so what? But saying Tool is the icon and Dream Theater takes all their cues from Tool is silly.

Dream Theater was formed in 1985. Tool was formed in 1990. Yeah its only 5 years, but those 5 years are some of the most drastic changes in music during my lifetime (1969-present). For example, music in 1995 isn't that much different than 2005, but in 1985 it was WAAAAAAY different than in 1990. The gap is even bigger if you take into consideration their respective first releases. Dream Theater's first major project was in 1986 and Tool's was in 1993. That qualifies as different generations of musicians in my book.

The point is Dream Theater and Tool come from two different eras.

Finn doesn't like DT and loves Tool. I don't really care for either, but at least I can tell which of the bands grew up watching the other band (hint, the answer is Tool).

Yes, I'm talking symantics here. Yes Portnoy tips his hat to Tool and Pantera. Somehow I think that is more of Portnoy's effort to be humble than any music-worshiping.

I'll say it again...that type of music has a finite amount of cliches and sounds, so of course there are going to be lots of similar riffs, blatant ripoffs (hey, if it works), and so on.

I would bet that 50s hard boppers all had the same arguments, "quoting" as Finn called it. I wonder if Dexter Gordon was ever considered a rip off of Coltrane?
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  #150  
Old 01-20-2006, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Oh, one more thing. You guys would make good lawyers. =)
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  #151  
Old 02-14-2006, 03:33 AM
IronCobraPTW IronCobraPTW is offline
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

for all you people who dont like portnoy yea you can say you dont like him because of his music but dont even try to rip on his drum playing. he is an incredible drum player and if you think you can do it then why arent you famous already

and to answer the question for some insane drum playing you have got to listen to led zepplin(bonham) Rush(Peart) and slipknot (Jordison) and just watch buddy rich and denis chambers play theyre amazing..
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  #152  
Old 02-14-2006, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: Mike Pourtnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrummerDad
I dont experiment much with music. The tastes of most are weird to me. Are there any other drummers, who can actually play like him? Im talking about the stuff where his feet are playing 3-4 time, and he cymbal crashes on 4-4 time, or where he plays in a 4-4 time while the band plays in a 3-4 or 6-8. His timing is superb if you ask me. And he's a triple threat. Clean, Fast, and Technical. I know Rush has played weird time sigs before, but its like these guys could care less about a time sig. If the words require a 5-8 in the first measure and a 3-4 or 7-8 in the next, so be it.I think its borderline genious. Any one else play like that, if so who?
DrummerDad has a point. Danny Carey may be able to do what Portnoy does, but Portnoy is one of the first of his kind. Peart layed down some of this style in the 80's with Rush, but Portnoy picks up from there. Images and Words has some of the best drumming I've ever heard. Portnoy's Polyrhythms and Hemiolas are unparalleled in his genre. Tool is not as progressive ; Danny Carey's drumming fits more into the alternative metal of Tool, not progressive. Carey is still a very good drummer, no doubt, but I firmly believe Portnoy is better.
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  #153  
Old 02-14-2006, 04:17 AM
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Default Re: Mike Pourtnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.

His playing is intense and awesome there too, but its just not my gig.
See? Stu respects him, even though he doesn't like progressive rock (even though Dream Theater goes further into other styles). Portnoy deserves respect. Many people also neglec the fact the Portnoy is mainly self-taught (he did take a music theory class and attend Berkley College though)
- Marc
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  #154  
Old 02-14-2006, 04:24 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

After reading some of these comments as well as some of the comments on Peart's Thread and Buddy Rich's thread, it's pretty shocking of what's going on. I expected everyone to be bowing down like these people were gods....people bashed on all three of them!

Yes, you may not like these drummers, but sometimes you should just respect them for their skill.
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  #155  
Old 02-14-2006, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Mike Pourtnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tambian89
Portnoy's Polyrhythms and Hemiolas are unparalleled in his genre.
Dunno about that. I'll put Morgen Agren and Thomas Haake on the table for discussion here, both for their work with Fredrik Thordendal.

Also, I think people credit DT and Portnoy with far too much. Neither of them are doing anything seriously new in a big way. Neither are Tool, who also get too much credit for their mish-mash of the Melvins and King Crimson. Both Danny Carey and Mike Portnoy work off a lot of the same sources, Carey is an amalgamation of 70s prog and fusion drummers (Bill Bruford, Billy Cobham, Alan White etc) with more stripped-back rock and alt-rock players (John Bonham, Sim Cain from Rollins Band etc). Portnoy is more of a stylistic decendant of 80s prog drummers (Neil Peart, notably) and heavy metal players (Lars Ulrich, Vinnie Paul etc).

Naturally that leaves their styles sounding a bit different, but that doesn't make Portnoy's approach to progressive playing "better" or more serious. Personally I prefer Danny Carey's approach, I find it a lot more musical and a lot less obvious. But that's just me. I don't think there's any objective criteria you can point to that makes either of them better than the other.
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  #156  
Old 02-14-2006, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time, he ain't a complete drummer. He's awesome when it comes to DT's music, but nothing else. There is a video of him playing with other cats on some solid rock song and if you just listen and don't watch, that could be anyone else. It was way too stiff even for the Mighty Portnoy!
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  #157  
Old 02-16-2006, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

You guys should watch this video of DT working on their album "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" from 2002. This video shows that MP really is a freak! hahaha

http://www.jasonwoliner.com/misc/portnoy_video.mov
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  #158  
Old 02-17-2006, 06:01 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Wow, who would of thought Portnoy caused so much controversy...LOL, j/k

Anyway, I'm a HUGE Dream Theater fan, I think their music is fantastic. But Mike Portnoy as a drummer does not impress me too much. I do think he is a great guy, and I'm sure he has contributed so much to the song writing process of DT. If you really listen to DT you might understand what I mean when I say that probably, alot of the older stuff was written around some crazy drum beat that Mike threw together. For example "Under a glass moon" or "6:00 o'Clock" and this is why DT's music is so appealing to drummers and has influenced alot of new drummers. But, notice that after Jordan Rudess joined, people began saying that the music has been disappointing. Well I think DT's music is now not writing around Mike (I'm sure some still is) but around Jordan instead. I believe Jordan's writing has been more prevalent in the last 3 albums, and that has caused Mikes parts to be simpler more straight forward.

The reason I say this is because I currently play for a Dream Theater tribute band, and I've had to dissect the music, not because it is extremely difficult but because, well, I have to learn it. I have to know what is really going on. However 80% percent I can pick up just by listening to the CD in my car. But there is that 20% percent that I really have to listen to. And the difficult part about playing the songs and what is impressive about Portnoy, is not the parts themselves, but instead putting all those parts together in a song. I like DT as a whole, MP is a good drummer, but is great with DT. But as far as my influences go in the realm of ProgRock/FusionRock or whatever you want to label it, I much rather listen to Mike Mangini, Nick D'Virgilio of Spock's Beard, and I'm starting to like Jeremy Colson. I've only seen Jeremy with Steve Vai twice, but he impressed me.

And as far as DT copying Tool or whomever, I don't think is copying but rather throwing a bit of a tribute to the bands and music they are influenced by. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that, if asked, I'm positive the DT members will tell you "yes, so and so part is influenced by so and so band" etc...countless times they throw in the actual parts from other bands that influence them into a song. For example "Enter Sand Man" from Metallica. Yet here you guys are arguing about it, stop complaining and go practice!

EDIT: Oh and about the argument about his huge drum kit being a joke, too big, or whatever...well, I've got a small 5 piece fusion size set, and I use two roto toms instead of the octobans Portnoy uses. Two crashes, two hi-hats (left and right side of the kit) one china, two splash cymbals, and one set of wannabe Max Stax, (which is really a china kang cymbal on top of any old cheap splash), one tamborine, and one jam block for the song "Surrounded" And guess what, I can play all the parts with that.

Last edited by Hitman; 02-17-2006 at 06:42 AM.
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  #159  
Old 02-19-2006, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

His dream theater set is soooo big (the one where he is playing "Hell's Kitchen"). I wonder if he cud spare some cymbals.

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7726
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  #160  
Old 02-23-2006, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Mike Portnoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin
While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time, he ain't a complete drummer. He's awesome when it comes to DT's music, but nothing else. There is a video of him playing with other cats on some solid rock song and if you just listen and don't watch, that could be anyone else. It was way too stiff even for the Mighty Portnoy!
Who gives a crap if he only fits DT's music? I got breaking news, people: HE'S IN DREAM THEATER! Therefore, his drumming need only satisfy DREAM THEATER'S style, no one else's. And if you ask me, he does a pretty damn good job when it comes to that.

And no kidding, tambian. Why do people have to start an argument about everything? Portnoy, Peart, Rich, the likes are great drummers with talent exceeding that of probably everyone on these forums. Why can't you leave the freakin' bashing out of these threads?

P.S. I don't give a crap if you want to jump on me and say "blah blah it's not bashing blah blah...." Even if it's not bashing by your accounts, it is still negative, and to me, that is bashing.


*crawls under blanket and prepares for a storm of raging protest surpassing the energy of a nuclear blast*

*comes back out from blanket and prepares to make his preparation note shorter*

*now trying to make the shortening n-

oh, forget it
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