...for the jazz cats ...

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by Mad About Drums

Well, I'm a rock guy deep in my heart too, but over the years I discovered other types of music and happen to love them as much as rock music.

I love jazz, but I'm no "jazz cat", that's for sure, and I doubt that I will ever be one.

I played in a jazz quartet once, a long time ago, the others liked what I did, but I didn't, I felt like a fish out of water, I couldn't get the right feel, the right context, so after a month, I left the band, I've never played in a proper jazz band since, only some bands with some jazz influences.

hang around this thread Henri and we will convert you into a Cat in no time

:)

[8Mile]

Couple questions for the cats:

1) Sweeping motions with brushes: Clockwise or counter-clockwise? Counter-clockwise here, though I'm under the impression I'm in the minority.

2) Playing 3/4, do you typically keep time with the hi-hat with left foot on beat 2 or beats 2 and 3? Or do you go the Elvin route and do something else entirely?

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Couple questions for the cats:

1) Sweeping motions with brushes: Clockwise or counter-clockwise? Counter-clockwise here, though I'm under the impression I'm in the minority.

2) Playing 3/4, do you typically keep time with the hi-hat with left foot on beat 2 or beats 2 and 3? Or do you go the Elvin route and do something else entirely?

1) Im a clockwise cat ...but will occasionally sweep counter clockwise for certain patterns....or even in a basic pattern every now and then as a turn around or to shake up the feel

2) I had to sit down and play for a second to answer this one.....I definitely alternate
sometimes 2
sometimes 2 and 3
sometimes just 3
sometimes the "and" of 1 or 2 or maybe 3 ...hahahaha

its kinda all over the place for me

but if its intended to be a proper waltz I will probably do 2 and 3

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

1) Im a clockwise cat ...but will occasionally sweep counter clockwise for certain patterns....or even in a basic pattern every now and then as a turn around or to shake up the feel

2) I had to sit down and play for a second to answer this one.....I definitely alternate
sometimes 2
sometimes 2 and 3
sometimes just 3
sometimes the "and" of 1 or 2 or maybe 3 ...hahahaha

its kinda all over the place for me

but if its intended to be a proper waltz I will probably do 2 and 3

This sums it up for me as well for both questions.

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Couple questions for the cats:

1) Sweeping motions with brushes: Clockwise or counter-clockwise? Counter-clockwise here, though I'm under the impression I'm in the minority.

2) Playing 3/4, do you typically keep time with the hi-hat with left foot on beat 2 or beats 2 and 3? Or do you go the Elvin route and do something else entirely?

Both, as well as an "8" motion with the brushes.

Both with the 3/4. As well as every other beat (2, 1, 3 etc) Depending on the feel. I always liked the way Joe Morello handled 3/4. Clear, concise but swinging. Max too.

[Numberless]

Originally Posted by haredrums

Oh Snap!

I have to get that Binney record, I love Ed Simon! Thanks Numberless!

Yeah, it's great, my teacher gave it to me. I love teachers like that, everytime I enter the room he's like "hey have you heard this guy?" or "you have to check this record out". I'm listening to a ton of new music thanks to him.

btw I was catching up with your blog and I loved the Rules of Improvisation article, so much truth in there!

[Numberless]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Couple questions for the cats:

1) Sweeping motions with brushes: Clockwise or counter-clockwise? Counter-clockwise here, though I'm under the impression I'm in the minority.

2) Playing 3/4, do you typically keep time with the hi-hat with left foot on beat 2 or beats 2 and 3? Or do you go the Elvin route and do something else entirely?

1) Clockwise most of the time.

2) I prefer just beat 2 but I like playing around with it a la Roy Haynes.

Originally Posted by haredrums

Hey Guys,

Sounds useful and fun.

I will start with a question, does anyone have any good/swinging recordings in 5/4 they could add to Todd's excellent list? If you haven't checked it out here is the link:

http://shipdrummer.blogspot.com/2012...ip+Drummer!%29

I don't know about you guys but 5 has always really eluded me, so Todd's work on this has been super helpful. Any tips/anecdotes/recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Dmacc, that is a truly wonderful gift your father passed on to you.

Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6j1SWM1z7w

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Couple questions for the cats:

1) Sweeping motions with brushes: Clockwise or counter-clockwise? Counter-clockwise here, though I'm under the impression I'm in the minority.

2) Playing 3/4, do you typically keep time with the hi-hat with left foot on beat 2 or beats 2 and 3? Or do you go the Elvin route and do something else entirely?

Not sure if you've already seen / used it but John Riley's book - The Jazz Drummer's Workshop: Advanced Concepts for Musical Development - has a great section on 3/4 time and fills/solos. It's actually a wonderful book overall.

[Numberless]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Not sure if you've already seen / used it but John Riley's book - The Jazz Drummer's Workshop: Advanced Concepts for Musical Development - has a great section on 3/4 time and fills/solos. It's actually a wonderful book overall.

Yeah, I worked extensively with those sections last semester and they're wonderful exercises. Right now I'm checking out the chapter 2 "Holding the Groove" exercises, not gonna lie I'm finding them really hard especially singing the beats while playing them, great stuff, at this point I'll pretty much listen to anything John Riley has to say, the man is a genious imo.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Numberless

Yeah, I worked extensively with those sections last semester and they're wonderful exercises. Right now I'm checking out the chapter 2 "Holding the Groove" exercises, not gonna lie I'm finding them really hard especially singing the beats while playing them, great stuff, at this point I'll pretty much listen to anything John Riley has to say, the man is a genious imo.

That's a great section! I found it a neat challenge to play the "Holding the Groove" section at 40 bpm trying to keep it relaxed and feeling good.

[Chunky - Hellraizer]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

I was a rock guy for most of my life and for the past 2 years have pretty much dedicated almost all my drumming efforts to jazz.

I though it would be cool to have a thread for the jazz cats .....

guys like 8mile, Andrew Hare, Numberless and the like to come and talk about all things jazz

things you are working on, listening to, gear, gigs, blog entries, books, drummers, concerns , revelations, whatever......

this way those who dont enjoy jazz dont have to come here and everyone is happy

who knows...maybe Chunky will start one for the metal cats......and Joe Morris, one for the funk cats ......

lets see how it works out

what say you guys ?

Wow just saw this thread, good stuff! I'll be pilferring everyones ideas and knowledge seens as I'm making a conscious effort to get more into jazz and hopefully one day love it.

I'll read all the posts when I get in from band practise tonight. Who knows I might just make that thread too, lol.

Nice work!

[haredrums]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

Here ya go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6j1SWM1z7w

That's a good one, thanks Plangentmusic!

[haredrums]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Couple questions for the cats:

1) Sweeping motions with brushes: Clockwise or counter-clockwise? Counter-clockwise here, though I'm under the impression I'm in the minority.

2) Playing 3/4, do you typically keep time with the hi-hat with left foot on beat 2 or beats 2 and 3? Or do you go the Elvin route and do something else entirely?

1. For a long time I played clockwise until one day I realized that I had unconsciously switched directions . I still have no idea why, it just happened naturally. Now I play counter-clockwise.

2. My default in 3 is on beat 2, but I do like to switch it up if the tune calls for it. For example on a more gospel style 3 I like to do beats 2 and 3 to simulate clapping. On the other hand if a tune has a more "floaty" groove I may only use the hi-hat for coming (with the great Roy Haynes in mind).

[haredrums]

Originally Posted by Numberless

Yeah, it's great, my teacher gave it to me. I love teachers like that, everytime I enter the room he's like "hey have you heard this guy?" or "you have to check this record out". I'm listening to a ton of new music thanks to him.

btw I was catching up with your blog and I loved the Rules of Improvisation article, so much truth in there!

Thanks!

I was really struck by all the parallels between sketch improv and improvising in jazz, and I'm glad you liked the article. For those of you who haven't checked it out the article is here:

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2012/0...of-improv.html

Very relevant to this thread actually. In the article I discuss Tina Fey's 4 rules of improv from her book "Bossypants" and apply them to improvising in jazz, check it out.

[con struct]

For years I've heard about something called the "Philly lick." Miles Davis mentions it in his autobiography, he even claims that he invented it and passed it on to Philly Joe Jones. He says that Jones made a lot of money playing that lick.

Of course, a lot of what Miles Davis said in his later years was preposterous rubbish.

But what's the damn lick? As near as I can gather, what it means is playing side stick on the four. But there were drummers doing that before Philly Joe Jones did it.

So, once and for all, can someone tell me exactly what the Philly lick is?

Personally I don't think there's any such thing.

[8Mile]

Originally Posted by con struct

For years I've heard about something called the "Philly lick." Miles Davis mentions it in his autobiography, he even claims that he invented it and passed it on to Philly Joe Jones. He says that Jones made a lot of money playing that lick.

Of course, a lot of what Miles Davis said in his later years was preposterous rubbish.

So what's the lick? As near as I can gather, what it means is playing side stick on the four. But there were drummers doing that before Philly Joe Jones did it.

So, once and for all, can someone tell me exactly what the Philly lick is?

Personally I don't think there's any such thing.

"Gimme that Philly lick!"

I think the only place I ever read about that was Miles' autobiography. I came to the same conclusion about what it was, which never made any sense because, like you say, that goes back way before Philly Joe.

I'd love to hear the answer to this one myself.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by con struct

For years I've heard about something called the "Philly lick." Miles Davis mentions it in his autobiography.

As near as I can gather, what it means is playing side stick on the four. But there were drummers doing that before Philly Joe Jones did it.

So, once and for all, can someone tell me exactly what the Philly lick is?

Personally I don't think there's any such thing.

I always thought the "Philly lick" was the cross sick on the 4 ...like a back beat

you hear many Miles drummers use this after Joe Jones

Jimmy Cobb says Miles insisted on it.....I have a MD article somewhere ...where Cobb talks about this...Ill try to dig it up ...its in one of the boxes full of MD in my moms basement

[eddypierce]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

I always thought the "Philly lick" was the cross sick on the 4 ...like a back beat

you hear many Miles drummers use this after Joe Jones

Jimmy Cobb says Miles insisted it.....I have a MD article somewhere ...where Cobb talks about this...Ill try to dig it up ...its in one of the boxes full of MD in my moms basement

Yes, I believe that's what the Philly lick is. But I've heard that Art Blakey has been given credit for originating it (or at least popularizing it), although I think Philly used it more than Art did.

Ed

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

I always thought the "Philly lick" was the cross sick on the 4 ...like a back beat

you hear many Miles drummers use this after Joe Jones

Jimmy Cobb says Miles insisted on it.....I have a MD article somewhere ...where Cobb talks about this...Ill try to dig it up ...its in one of the boxes full of MD in my moms basement

Yes, as I said, side stick on the four. And you hear every damn jazz drummer in the world play that. I mean, whoop-de-doo.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by con struct

Yes, as I said, side stick on the four. And you hear every damn jazz drummer in the world play that. I mean, whoop-de-doo.

yeah...NOW they do and have for a long time

before Papa Joe cats were swinging predominantly on the snare drum .....now and for the past 70 or so years the ride cymbal is the norm


when Philly and Blakey snapped the cross stick on 4 .....cats weren't rockin that yet

[Anon La Ply]

I'm curious now - can anyone post an example?

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

yeah...NOW they do and have for a long time


when he did it and when Blakey did it.....cats weren't rockin that yet

Documentation please.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

I'm curious now - can anyone post an example?

here at about 7:07....Jimmy Cobb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-cScwqpLWQ

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by con struct

Documentation please.

what more documentation do I need than people who were there at the time crediting these guys with doing this when no one else was ?

please dont turn this thread into a jerkfest.....thanks

[8Mile]

I have to admit, I thought for sure Krupa was the first to play a cross-stick. Although maybe not just on beat four like Philly Joe did.

Regardless, I can't think of a recording where Krupa did this, so I could just be flat-out wrong about it.

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

here at about 7:07....Jimmy Cobb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-cScwqpLWQ

So that's all it is? Only on the 4 or does playing it on on the 2 and 4 count as well?

Surely Papa Jo or Big Sid would have done it at some stage?

Lots of questions. Sorry. I'm just a jazz roach :)

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

what more documentation do I need than people who were there at the time crediting these guys with doing this when no one else was ?

please dont turn this thread into a jerkfest.....thanks

What people? Who are "these guys?" Where are you getting this information?

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by con struct

What people? Who are "these guys?" Where are you getting this information?

ever read a book bro?

ever take a jazz history class?

ever study documented commentary on these very subjects?

....maybe read an interview or even watch the Ken Burns movie at least ?

....gee I wonder who "these guys" are .....who could they possibly be

even if he wasnt the very first to do it....who cares?

c'mon dude

enjoy your weekend night arguing on a message board

I'm off to two gigs......have fun with this guy

[8Mile]

Finally, the perfect thread for this:

http://youtu.be/nilzBEFsQlg

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

ever read a book bro?

ever take a jazz history class?

ever study documented commentary on these very subjects?

....maybe read an interview or even watch the Ken Burns movie at least ?

....gee I wonder who "these guys" are .....who could they possibly be

even if he wasnt the very first to do it....who cares?

c'mon dude

enjoy your weekend night arguing on a message board

I'm off to two gigs......have fun with this guy

Goodness gracious. I don't see the need for that. Don't get so worked up, so scattered, and please don't take any of this this personally. It all really amounts to nothing, don't you know that?

Myself, I'm off to cook a delicious, juicy and succulent New York strip. So you enjoy your two gigs and I will enjoy my cooking.

You see, I love steak. I've loved steak all my life, since I was a kid. Nothing else does what a steak does, whatever it is that a steak does.

I used to think that the ultimate steak was cooked over a charcoal grill. Now I know that this is not true. The most delicious and tender steak I can make is cooked on a skillet.

I researched this a lot on the internet. What I found was that I didn't know a damn thing about cooking a steak. So I had to learn, I wanted to do this, I really did. And here is the method I arrived at to make a perfect steak every time.

I like a New York strip, so that's what I use. I let the steak get to room temperature, just sitting there for awhile. You must do that.

I take my favorite skillet, one that I've had forever, a wide skillet with a thick bottom, and I put it on a burner that's set to medium. You want to heat up your skillet, see.

Meanwhile I put sea salt and ground pepper from the mill on both sides of the steak, a good bit of it, lightly pressing it into the meat.

You can tell when your skillet is hot enough when a drop of water skids along the surface. It takes a little while. That's when I put in about a tablespoon of olive oil.

Then I lay my steak in the pan. It sizzles a good bit but everything's under control.

I let it cook for four minutes, because I like a rare steak. When it's been cooking for four minutes I turn it over, and I add a chunk of butter to the pan.

The butter and olive oil make a sort of sauce that I spoon over the steak while it's cooking. When fours minutes have gone by I turn the steak over one last time and let it cook for, oh, almost but not quite a minute.

Then I put it on a plate and pour the olive oil and butter sauce on it. It's great! Tender, juicy and succulent, packed with flavor. Ambrosia.

Not that this has anything to do with jazz.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Finally, the perfect thread for this:

http://youtu.be/nilzBEFsQlg

that is AMAZING!!!!!!!!

seriously !!!!

[Anthony Amodeo]

con struct

how was your steak ?

never had that olive oil and butter sauce concoction you speak of on a steak ......sounds delicious

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by con struct

Goodness gracious. I don't see the need for that. Don't get so worked up, so scattered, and please don't take any of this this personally. It all really amounts to nothing, don't you know that?

Myself, I'm off to cook a delicious, juicy and succulent New York strip. So you enjoy your two gigs and I will enjoy my cooking.

You see, I love steak. I've loved steak all my life, since I was a kid. Nothing else does what a steak does, whatever it is that a steak does.

I used to think that the ultimate steak was cooked over a charcoal grill. Now I know that this is not true. The most delicious and tender steak I can make is cooked on a skillet.

I researched this a lot on the internet. What I found was that I didn't know a damn thing about cooking a steak. So I had to learn, I wanted to do this, I really did. And here is the method I arrived at to make a perfect steak every time.

I like a New York strip, so that's what I use. I let the steak get to room temperature, just sitting there for awhile. You must do that.

I take my favorite skillet, one that I've had forever, a wide skillet with a thick bottom, and I put it on a burner that's set to medium. You want to heat up your skillet, see.

Meanwhile I put sea salt and ground pepper from the mill on both sides of the steak, a good bit of it, lightly pressing it into the meat.

You can tell when your skillet is hot enough when a drop of water skids along the surface. It takes a little while. That's when I put in about a tablespoon of olive oil.

Then I lay my steak in the pan. It sizzles a good bit but everything's under control.

I let it cook for four minutes, because I like a rare steak. When it's been cooking for four minutes I turn it over, and I add a chunk of butter to the pan.

The butter and olive oil make a sort of sauce that I spoon over the steak while it's cooking. When fours minutes have gone by I turn the steak over one last time and let it cook for, oh, almost but not quite a minute.

Then I put it on a plate and pour the olive oil and butter sauce on it. It's great! Tender, juicy and succulent, packed with flavor. Ambrosia.

Not that this has anything to do with jazz.

I prefer turkey myself, here's how to do a whiskey's roasted turkey...

1. Buy a turkey of about 5 kg (for 6), a bottle of whiskey, salt, pepper, olive oil and pork fat.

2. Put a bard of bacon around the turkey, tie it, put the salt and the pepper. Add a drizzle of olive oil.

3. Preheat the oven, thermostat 7 for 10 minutes.

4. Pour out a glass of whiskey for yourself during that time.

5. Prut the turkey in the oven in a baking dish.

6. Then pour two glasses of whiskey and drink them.

7. Put therpostat to 8 after 20 binutes to seize it.

8. Poor another three glasses of whiskey.

9. After dalf hourr stuff open ze woven and monitor the bush of the bird.

10. Grab a brottle of whishkee, and put a good shot behind the bravate - not - the tie.

11. After anobher dalf hourr again, staggering up the boven. Open the door burn over.. no, turn sober... err, nope... overburn... geez, put ze bird the other way roun' in the raging dish.

12. Burn ze hand with the f*****g boven's door while closing it - for crying out loud.

13. Try to sit on a damn chair and pour five or six glasses of whiskey. Or otherwise, I dont know r'member azymore...

14. Cock - no - shine - cook - not - yes ha! Cook 4 hours ze byrdey.

15. And yo! 5 more drinks while waiting. It's good feeling where it goes, hic...

16. Burp.

17. Pull the oven out of the turkey.

18. Pour is a good swig of visky. Try to get out the f*****g turky of ze boven, again, coz yo miss'd it first time.

19. Pick up the fallen bird from ze floor. Clean it with a dirt rag lying around here and put on a blat, or dish or plate. Anyway who cares!

20. Whhoooops! falling because of the fat on the floor - tiles - from when she fell, the birdey!

21. Decide that you're actually fine on the floor and finish the throttle of rhisky.

22. Crawl into bed, lie on the carpet, sleep all the night remains.

23. The next day at noon, eat cold turkey with mayonnaise (in a tube, do not try to make it), then clean the mess from the previous day for the rest of the day. Serve with 2 aspirins.

[cp84]

when playing in 3/4 i like to comp in 4/4 so it goes round in circles. i think its a good way to break out of an otherwise regimented feel. i find that if i just play standard foot patterns (hihat on 2 etc) then it can all sound a bit boring and samey. i guess the trick is to move things around but not disrupt the overall flow.

dunno if that makes sense to anyone.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by cp84

when playing in 3/4 i like to comp in 4/4 so it goes round in circles. i think its a good way to break out of an otherwise regimented feel. i find that if i just play standard foot patterns (hihat on 2 etc) then it can all sound a bit boring and samey. i guess the trick is to move things around but not disrupt the overall flow.

dunno if that makes sense to anyone.

makes absolute perfect sense to me

gives it that over the bar line feel

the 3/4 is there but 4/4 is implied at times

Elvin would do this alot

sounds great and tricks the ear sometimes

can also confuse the cats you are playing with if they are not hip to it :)

[groove1]

I was originally taught clockwise brushes. Later, Ed Thigpen (I had a few lessons with him)
taught me counter clockwise. Years later I have gone back to clockwise as I'm more comfortable with it generally because I learned it first. I know a lot of clockwise cats that
changed to counterclockwise and stayed that way....I have never met anyone who started
counterclockwise and went clockwise. I know a guy who was clockwise and then studied
with Billy Hart and switched to counterclockwise.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by groove1

I was originally taught clockwise brushes. Later, Ed Thigpen (I had a few lessons with him)
taught me counter clockwise. Years later I have gone back to clockwise as I'm more comfortable with it generally because I learned it first. I know a lot of clockwise cats that
changed to counterclockwise and stayed that way....I have never met anyone who started
counterclockwise and went clockwise. I know a guy who was clockwise and then studied
with Billy Hart and switched to counterclockwise.

now I have to try starting counter

I feel like Im missing something

:)

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

con struct

how was your steak ?

never had that olive oil and butter sauce concoction you speak of on a steak ......sounds delicious

Melted in the mouth, bursting with juices.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by con struct

Melted in the mouth, bursting with juices.

I will without a doubt try that olive oil butter sauce