To what extent does your personality....

[larryace]

come through in your drumming? Is it like your thumbprint, inescapable?

Say you are trying to learn some song and copy another drum part. Does your personality go to the back burner while you try and slip in someone's skin, or is it impossible to separate the personality from the playing?

I'm not sure. I think I want to say that the personality is inseparable. Say you want to play Zeppelin's "When the Levee Breaks"... do you really try and feel like Bonham felt or do you just try and play the notes? The latter, right?

Hal Blaine would be a good subject to study. That man played on so many diverse records, that if you never knew it was the same drummer, I wonder how many could deduce that by just listening.

So, can you jump out of yourself and play like someone else?

[Richard.J]

Learn the pattern (notes) then make it your own.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by larryace

come through in your drumming? Is it like your thumbprint, inescapable?

Originally Posted by larryace

So, can you jump out of yourself and play like someone else?

Yes, some characteristics will always show through.

Of course we can ape other players, in the same way as actors can ape others' characteristics. Some actors are more able to transform than others - so Meryl Streep is a chameleon but Jack Nicholson is always hired for his particular shtick.

There's a famous jazz quite about growth a s musician through our influences - assimilate, imitate, innovate. You learn the moves and weave them into your own musical identity.

This applies to others - I just do what I can and hope for the best :)

[Midnite Zephyr]

Well, that's the thing. I don't always play songs exactly like the record matching everything note for note, but I do try to capture the feel of the particular drummer I'm covering. The reason why is because I hear these bands play live, and they don't always play it just like the record.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

As much as I'd like to pick up the nuances, touch and feel of another player, at the end of the day I can't help but be me. And the truth is, I have no problem with that at all.

Spending a lifetime beating yourself up for not being someone else is a fools errand. In the case of playing covers, the best you can do is try to represent it as faithfully as you can.

[dmacc]

Other than when my early years when I began playing, I've never tried nor cared to copy any drum part. I capture the essence of what is happening and that's about all.

For about the last 15 years I've mostly been recording other people's original songs crossing various styles and playing jazz. Both allow the freedom to play what I hear to best serve the music while at the same time ensuring the writer of the music is beyond happy with what I play. So, I guess by default it's my personality coming through and not trying to replicate a prerecorded part.

[fixxxer]

I think personality is a big factor. I find that my playing is better when I ask myself, "What would Mitch do?" (when playing Hendrix) or "What would Jon do?" (when playing Zepplin). I can get into the "role" better.
As far as originals or jams when there s no previous track to follow, my playing is a lot like my own personality. Laid back, no need for the attention to be on me, keep things as simple as possible (but what you do do, make it count) and stay steady and stable.
Of course there are times I get a little cocky or clever and I hope that comes out in my playing as well!
I also mix the two- If we are working on an original that has a Hendrix feel to it, I may ask myself, "What would Mitch do?" while still being me in the mix.

[Daisy]

When I first started, and started to get the hang of reading notation, I spent a lot of time learning songs note for note. And every single time, when I got to the end of it, I thought "Hmm, what was the point of that ?" I always found it just didn't satisfy anything in me.

I'm far from happy with my playing (who is?) but I found early on that I mainly wanted to play what I wanted to play. I listen to the drums on every song of course, and think "Would I have done that, or would I have done something else?". And if I think it's just absolutely RIGHT, then I try to work out why it's so right, so I can learn from that. But thinking of what I want to do/play is a large part of the fun for me.

[opentune]

If I am to offer any feel to drumming, I cannot be anybody but me, no matter who I copy. Almost out of principle would not want to play note for note (not that I could anyway).
Its an interesting comparison, say a Hal Blaine and John Bonham. Blaine - the chameleon, so diverse so as to be incredibly useful but unrecognizable on hundreds of records. Bonham - on the same sessions, would likely be recognized immediately by his drumming. You could see how as a session player, one is far more suitable than the other.

[Otto]

The theory of personality is established through associative statistics...causality is not established.

With this said, personality as a psychometric for music content must also be associative...not causal.

We have no way to determine if associatively defined personality traits actually lead to specific musical expression...only that they might co-variate in a way that can be statistically detected....otherwise we would have a definitive answer to the nature/nurture question.

This brings up a great thought.

Most of what we do here is discuss shared concepts.

If those concepts are not shared, miscommunication can occur...and often leads to conflicts over written media.

If you ever feel angry at a post, take a moment and look at the language/concept usage and see if you are using the terms/concepts congruently with the originator.

The cause of the conflict is usually found there.

...then apply this to your working situations in music...and watch your reputation for being good to work with grow.

[paistemage]

When i was learning set I copied everything exactly, note for note. Some songs REQUIRE certain parts to be played exactly.
To an extent if I was RECORDING or PERFORMING these sogns with a group, I might change SOME things up.
In general I try to play it exactly.
I play mostly rock/metal/blues.

Jazz is completely differant. It is almost EXPECTEd to add your own variation and keep the feel.

I wouldn't play "Seasons in the Abyss" with a bossa nova feel , unless I was in Mr. Bungle.

Some fills I make my own, if they are relatively generic, but if they are that ONE fill, like in "HEy Joe" I try to play it exact.

Part in parcel I say it depends on the song or the style.

[jafo]

It seems to me like your confusing passion and styles for personality. I think drummers style and passions for a groove, feel or just loving to play drums comes through more than thier personality. I think also drummers styles transend over in thier songs to other drummers. But as far as thier personalities, thats individual and a broad scope of behavioral traits.

Myself using your example of When the levy breaks, I play this quite abit. I love the beat. I'm no Bonham, but I can put myself in the pocket and play this song pretty well. I feel the song more than I feel or think about the drummer who wrote it. So I play it with my passion as correct as possible but also not note for note. Now if you say the song or beat or rythm is an extension of the drummer who wrote it, then It's still up to me to supply the passion to make it feel right to me.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by larryace

To what extent does your personality come through in your drumming? Is it like your thumbprint, inescapable?

Yes it does, I only know to be myself, with everything it might represent as a musician and as a person in relation to the other players :)

Originally Posted by larryace

Say you are trying to learn some song and copy another drum part. Does your personality go to the back burner while you try and slip in someone's skin, or is it impossible to separate the personality from the playing?

I'm not sure. I think I want to say that the personality is inseparable. Say you want to play Zeppelin's "When the Levee Breaks"... do you really try and feel like Bonham felt or do you just try and play the notes? The latter, right?

Your personality will show through whatever song you're covering, you may do every effort to capture the feel and musical approach of the original drummer, learn the drum part note for note, it will still sounds like you, you can ask 100 drummers to lay down the groove of "When the Levee Breaks", you'll end up with 100 different versions, each and everyone of us has a personality, and it's inseparable :)

It's even more noticable when you're creating the music, during your drumming through original compositions, all your influences, musical experiences, technical abilities, tastes, feelings, educations, relationships with other band members all come out at once :)

Originally Posted by larryace

So, can you jump out of yourself and play like someone else?

You may be influenced by drummers, learning their styles, their approach, you can copy and emulate them, but you'll still sound like yourself in the end, others might spot the odd similarites here and there, but it's still very much you playing with your personality :)

So, no, I cannot be and play like someone else, at best, I can be a pale imitation of another drummer :)

Jason Bonham recently did a world tour playing his father's music with the Led Zeppelin Experience, and even he's got John's DNA running through his body, he sounds different than Daddy... (but, the music's still wonderful... just slightly different, drumming wise)

[larryace]

Pretty clear assessment there Henri. Like your drumming, it describes things in an elegant and clearly understandable manner.

Which begs the question.....if I don't care for a drummer personally, like if I think they are closed minded boorish and shut off...does that mean our drumming sensibilties will clash as well?

[larryace]

Originally Posted by Otto

The theory of personality is established through associative statistics...causality is not established.

With this said, personality as a psychometric for music content must also be associative...not causal.

We have no way to determine if associatively defined personality traits actually lead to specific musical expression...only that they might co-variate in a way that can be statistically detected....otherwise we would have a definitive answer to the nature/nurture question.

This brings up a great thought.

Most of what we do here is discuss shared concepts.

If those concepts are not shared, miscommunication can occur...and often leads to conflicts over written media.

If you ever feel angry at a post, take a moment and look at the language/concept usage and see if you are using the terms/concepts congruently with the originator.

The cause of the conflict is usually found there.

...then apply this to your working situations in music...and watch your reputation for being good to work with grow.

Man you're 10 miles over my head. In simpler terms please?

[8Mile]

Originally Posted by larryace

Which begs the question.....if I don't care for a drummer personally, like if I think they are closed minded boorish and shut off...does that mean our drumming sensibilties will clash as well?

I tend to think it is possible to appreciate music from a musician you otherwise wouldn't like if you knew him/her.

A good example is Hilary Jones. I think she's a fine drummer and I really like what she plays. But she's pretty extreme politically and I find her a bit tough to take. When she plays music, she doesn't come across at all the way she does when she's writing.

There are a lot of other musicians whose music I enjoy but who aren't the best people. So I dunno.

[larryace]

Yea, there's players I like who I hate lol. What's funny is that sentence makes perfect sense.

[Bo Eder]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

I tend to think it is possible to appreciate music from a musician you otherwise wouldn't like if you knew him/her.

A good example is Hilary Jones. I think she's a fine drummer and I really like what she plays. But she's pretty extreme politically and I find her a bit tough to take. When she plays music, she doesn't come across at all the way she does when she's writing.

There are a lot of other musicians whose music I enjoy but who aren't the best people. So I dunno.

I'm not sure you're making a fair statement. Politics, like religion, are just those things people don't discuss, and probably shouldn't, because they're personal and it doesn't really matter which way you lean at all, when you look at the music we all make. In this instance, if Hilary is passionate about her playing and makes great music regardless, then it doesn't matter, right? You're also implying that she might not be the 'best people' because of those politics? Then the same thing could be said of every one of us here because we all don't think the same, especially when it comes to politics and religion. another reason why we don't discuss those here, right?

Sorry to derail, I just wanted to point that out before this thread becomes some kind of political (and/or religious) hate-fest. Am I wrong here? Correct me if I'm wrong if I've over-stepped a boundary.

[KarlCrafton]

Originally Posted by larryace

Which begs the question.....if I don't care for a drummer personally, like if I think they are closed minded boorish and shut off...does that mean our drumming sensibilties will clash as well?

Dude, we agreed we'd never discuss that on the forum..... man.....thanks a lot. I was almost over it too...


I try to cop "the vibe" of what a drummer did when playing covers like Hendrix, Cream, Zep, etc... but it's always "me".
Haven't been one to do more than that in my playing of covers.

There's signature licks in songs that you'd play a) because they're "known", and part of the song, and b) because they're freakin' FUN to do haha!

I can't say I have a "top 3" or "top 5" drummers that I go too, because there are too dang many that I've thought were cool, and have influenced my thinking in one way or another, or maybe sent me off in a little different direction.

One super cool drummer that floored me and changed a whole lot for me was when I saw Mel Taylor with the Venture's on a little kit and ONE cymbal. He was amazing!
I started thinking "what do I need all this extra stuff for?" after watching him.

Also, when playing covers, the rest of the band is what I'm also listening too, and they may do something that sparks something in me, so it's just a journey in a song or moment.
I don't wanna miss that by trying to just emulate every lick a drummer did--in one moment in time that happened to be "the take".

There may be a couple of "rules" that can't be broken...
Never change the lick in "Born To be Wild" (fortunately, I've never done that, but I've heard stories..... ) and, in playing "Good Times Bad Times", you HAVE to nail the doubles on the bass drum.

Feel free to add to the list--

8 mile, I take it you are "friends" with Hilary on facebook (or were)?

[larryace]

Any truth to this statement? I'm not sure.

The better you can imitate, the better drummer you are.

[Bo Eder]

Originally Posted by larryace

Any truth to this statement? I'm not sure.

The better you can imitate, the better drummer you are.

Perhaps. I believe in the beginning we all imitate. But through that you assimilate a d you start coming out anyway. I think it's good to nail the sound or the feel when doing covers but even when you do that, who you are comes through anyway.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Bo Eder

Perhaps. I believe in the beginning we all imitate. But through that you assimilate a d you start coming out anyway. I think it's good to nail the sound or the feel when doing covers but even when you do that, who you are comes through anyway.

+1..............................

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

I tend to think it is possible to appreciate music from a musician you otherwise wouldn't like if you knew him/her.

A good example is Hilary Jones. I think she's a fine drummer and I really like what she plays. But she's pretty extreme politically and I find her a bit tough to take. When she plays music, she doesn't come across at all the way she does when she's writing.

There are a lot of other musicians whose music I enjoy but who aren't the best people. So I dunno.

Good example, Larry. It shows the beauty of music, where what we play gives no indication of our religion or politics (lyrics notwithstanding). Truly the universal language ...

... as long as it's not C&W, metal, thrash, hip hop, modern RnB or autotune pop :)

Actually, going the other way, I had a good pal in a previous job who worked in IT but played in a metal band on the side and was way into Rammstein, which I hated. He was a great guy and I enjoyed the passion he had for his music. I'm friends with quite a few metalheads here too, some of whom no doubt find my band's music dull.

Another example, around 1980 my band was supported by a band called The Real F* Idiots and they made the most evil horrible din that made grunge sound like Steely Dan ... lovely people :)

[Bad Tempered Clavier]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

There's a famous jazz quite about growth a s musician through our influences - assimilate, imitate, innovate

Originally Posted by Bo Eder

I believe in the beginning we all imitate. But through that you assimilate a d you start coming out anyway.

I guess that depends on your definition of "assimilate": if one means to make like to or to cause to resemble, then "assimilate" and "imitate" are synonymous. If one means to absorb and (metaphorically) incorporate, then I would say that is close to the mark for how I go about it.

Having played in originals bands for the last decade or so I've recently gone back to playing standards/other people's music; typically I will listen to the recordings and work out the basic arrangement (4 bar Intro, 8 bars Verse, 8 bars Chorus, Middle 8 etc) and then ignore almost everything about the original artist's version and treat the song as if we had written it: so from that point it is down to my relationship with the bass player to establish a groove and the leads and vocal do their thing on top of it and so on . . .

Interestingly, I've found that covers of covers are sometimes a more preferable reference point. We started playing Glory Box by Portishead recently and their arrangement and little details (e.g. the echo-chamber loop at the end) didn't really suit us; the version played by John Martyn was much more our thing so I chose that version as my inspiration before we started patching together our take on the song.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by larryace

Which begs the question.....if I don't care for a drummer personally, like if I think they are closed minded boorish and shut off...does that mean our drumming sensibilties will clash as well?

Originally Posted by 8Mile

A good example is Hilary Jones. I think she's a fine drummer and I really like what she plays. But she's pretty extreme politically and I find her a bit tough to take. When she plays music, she doesn't come across at all the way she does when she's writing.

All I can say is that there's drummers and musicians that I admire in the professional world of music, through their playing, nothing else, I don't know them, other than what I feel when I listen to them, I do not know their respective personality, but you can read a lot into body language and since our personality is showing through what we play, my guess is that the one who I admire will have a personality which I could get along with, providing of course that the feeling is mutual, as far as personality is concerned :)

I like Hilary Jones's playing, and yes, she's into political stuff nowadays, but musicaly, there's good chances that I'll like her personality, the fact that she feel strongly about a political view doesn't bother me, many of my musicians friends which I can relate both on a personality level as well as a musician have strong feelings about certain aspect of life and have very different opinions than mine, it doesn't create a barrier, on the contrary, it's the emphasis of great discussions on a given topic, admittedly, often about music, since it's were our common ground is based :)

when i play, people can tell i have a sense of humor, 'cause my drumming is a joke!!! haha!

[8Mile]

Originally Posted by Bo Eder

I'm not sure you're making a fair statement. Politics, like religion, are just those things people don't discuss, and probably shouldn't, because they're personal and it doesn't really matter which way you lean at all, when you look at the music we all make.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't enjoy discussing politics, either. And it certainly won't stop me from listening to the music a person makes. But larry asked the question about whether personality comes through in how a musician played. I think a person's political views are part of their personality and I guess I'm saying a musician's playing can have nothing to do with their personality.

In this instance, if Hilary is passionate about her playing and makes great music regardless, then it doesn't matter, right?

Yes, I agree. It doesn't matter.

You're also implying that she might not be the 'best people' because of those politics? Then the same thing could be said of every one of us here because we all don't think the same, especially when it comes to politics and religion. another reason why we don't discuss those here, right?

I wasn't implying Hilary isn't a good person. I was thinking of people like Miles who apparently was abusive towards women, among other things. Yet I find his music positively beautiful. Again, I'm using examples to show that I believe musician's music and personality can be distinct.

Sorry to derail, I just wanted to point that out before this thread becomes some kind of political (and/or religious) hate-fest. Am I wrong here? Correct me if I'm wrong if I've over-stepped a boundary.

Not at all. I probably wasn't clear enough about what I was trying to say.

[8Mile]

Originally Posted by KarlCrafton

8 mile, I take it you are "friends" with Hilary on facebook (or were)?

Karl,

No, but someone mentioned it on the internet and I checked some of the stuff on her page out. I was struck by how there wasn't anything music-related on her page and it was pretty much all politics. And kind of angry-sounding political stuff, at that. And yet, when she plays music, it's very loose, swingin' and relaxed. I perceived a dichotomy there. But I've never met her, so my take is probably kind of flimsy here.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Karl,

No, but someone mentioned it on the internet and I checked some of the stuff on her page out. I was struck by how there wasn't anything music-related on her page and it was pretty much all politics. And kind of angry-sounding political stuff, at that. And yet, when she plays music, it's very loose, swingin' and relaxed. I perceived a dichotomy there. But I've never met her, so my take is probably kind of flimsy here.

I've read a comment on the net where someone said that her drumming and politics had a common thread of aggression. From what I've seen, her playing seems more lyrical than aggressive but I've only heard a tiny portion of her work.

Then again, I've known some very mellow metalheads - for them it's possibly a catharsis that allows them to remain mellow. I believe that our drumming is inevitably a reflection of our personalities, but not necessarily our public face or even our conscious selves. How far do we peel the onion?

Also, the other musicians and the song make a huge difference ... we are not the same person to everyone, eg. some people find themselves regressing when with their parents, falling into the same old dynamics. Same thing can happen when you get to play a song from 25 years ago ... you immediately tend towards your old approach, even when your style has changed.

We're very different people to our spouses, children, friends, workmates, strangers etc. So it comes down to "Which personality??". You could never analyse this scientifically because it would be impossible to establish reliable controls.

[Bo Eder]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I don't enjoy discussing politics, either. And it certainly won't stop me from listening to the music a person makes. But larry asked the question about whether personality comes through in how a musician played. I think a person's political views are part of their personality and I guess I'm saying a musician's playing can have nothing to do with their personality.



Yes, I agree. It doesn't matter.

I wasn't implying Hilary isn't a good person. I was thinking of people like Miles who apparently was abusive towards women, among other things. Yet I find his music positively beautiful. Again, I'm using examples to show that I believe musician's music and personality can be distinct.

Not at all. I probably wasn't clear enough about what I was trying to say.

I'm cool. I just wanted to present a fair representation. People can be however they want to be so long as no one's getting hurt. I'm sure there are many people who agree with her, as well as people who don't. To each his own, I guess.

[unfunkyfooted]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Karl,

No, but someone mentioned it on the internet and I checked some of the stuff on her page out. I was struck by how there wasn't anything music-related on her page and it was pretty much all politics. And kind of angry-sounding political stuff, at that. And yet, when she plays music, it's very loose, swingin' and relaxed. I perceived a dichotomy there. But I've never met her, so my take is probably kind of flimsy here.

forgive me for injecting myself into your convo if it is meant to be an "A and B Conversation", but i had a thought that may (or may not) be relative.

i do not know who Hillary Jones is or what her politics are, but the thought occurred to me that perhaps her music is her solace. it is the place where everything is right - especially if it is her music. however it kills her, breaks her heart, sends daggers into her spine, makes her crazy (you get the idea) that the world is not like the groovy place that is her music. and she cannot sit idly by while there are those "others" espousing those "other views" (whatever they are, or who those "others" might be) and making her world a much worse place than she would like for it to be..

so she rails.

and then...there is her music : ) .

isn't that usually the case ? there's "Who I Am" and then there's "What I Have To Deal With And How It Effects Me".

[Bo Eder]

Originally Posted by unfunkyfooted

forgive me for injecting myself into your convo if it is meant to be an "A and B Conversation", but i had a thought that may (or may not) be relative.

i do not know who Hillary Jones is or what her politics are, but the thought occurred to me that perhaps her music is her solace. it is the place where everything is right - especially if it is her music. however it kills her, breaks her heart, sends daggers into her spine, makes her crazy (you get the idea) that the world is not like the groovy place that is her music. and she cannot sit idly by while there are those "others" espousing those "other views" (whatever they are, or who those "others" might be) and making her world a much worse place than she would like for it to be..

so she rails.

and then...there is her music : ) .

isn't that usually the case ? there's "Who I Am" and then there's "What I Have To Deal With And How It Effects Me".

That's a cool way of looking at it too ;)

[unfunkyfooted]

Originally Posted by Bo Eder

That's a cool way of looking at it too ;)

thanks Bo.

i'm sure there are "other" takes as well.

: )

[Pollyanna]

Uncle Ghee, love your work. Yes, so often music is a haven or catharsis rather than an expression of our overt personalities.

I've known and seen too many hopeless, using, unreliable, dishonest, flea-bitten, alcoholic, shambling, unorganised, scrounging, delusional no hopers play music like an angel to think otherwise :)

[Joe Morris]

Its a good thing to have your personality come through no matter what your playing. That's your mark, that's what makes us all different. I can copy a drum part but it always sounds like me playing it. Why would you want to sound exactly like another drummer anyway. You need to always sound like you. I think that's very important.

[8Mile]

Originally Posted by unfunkyfooted

forgive me for injecting myself into your convo if it is meant to be an "A and B Conversation", but i had a thought that may (or may not) be relative.

i do not know who Hillary Jones is or what her politics are, but the thought occurred to me that perhaps her music is her solace. it is the place where everything is right - especially if it is her music. however it kills her, breaks her heart, sends daggers into her spine, makes her crazy (you get the idea) that the world is not like the groovy place that is her music. and she cannot sit idly by while there are those "others" espousing those "other views" (whatever they are, or who those "others" might be) and making her world a much worse place than she would like for it to be..

so she rails.

and then...there is her music : ) .

isn't that usually the case ? there's "Who I Am" and then there's "What I Have To Deal With And How It Effects Me".

Great point and great way of looking at it. It's funny, because I never thought of it that way, but I probably should have, because in a lot of ways, it's true for me. I always talk about how music is an escape from the stress of the job and the mechanics of office politics. I bet a lot of people I work with would be surprised how differently I come across on the bandstand.

I think my initial point has been completely refuted by now. We all wear masks to play certain roles. Maybe the way to think of it is that our musical expression conveys a certain facet of our personalities. Maybe not the one everyone gets to see, but a very real and important one, nonetheless.

[unfunkyfooted]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Uncle Ghee, love your work. Yes, so often music is a haven or catharsis rather than an expression of our overt personalities.

I've known and seen too many hopeless, using, unreliable, dishonest, flea-bitten, alcoholic, shambling, unorganised, scrounging, delusional no hopers play music like an angel to think otherwise :)

thanks Polisimo. the feeling is very mutual.

[unfunkyfooted]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Great point and great way of looking at it. It's funny, because I never thought of it that way, but I probably should have, because in a lot of ways, it's true for me. I always talk about how music is an escape from the stress of the job and the mechanics of office politics. I bet a lot of people I work with would be surprised how differently I come across on the bandstand.

I think my initial point has been completely refuted by now. We all wear masks to play certain roles. Maybe the way to think of it is that our musical expression conveys a certain facet of our personalities. Maybe not the one everyone gets to see, but a very real and important one, nonetheless.

i know what you mean. Dad probably doesn't want to be remembered as a screaming maniac. he'd probably rather be fishing.

or something.

[?uesto]

Musicality and appropriation and reservation and maturity. I think these are heavy aspects of my personality and my playing.