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  #1  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:42 PM
PeteN PeteN is offline
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Default Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Lately...I could not decide if I liked a higher pitch or lower pitch on the reso head, something just never seemed just right so I decided to try tuning both heads to same pitch and that seems to be making the feel of the batter head much more enjoyable and dynamically controllable when striking it.

Anyone else ever notice this?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 03-01-2012, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Yes! basically, it's the only way I tune my toms these days. It sounds best to me. Both heads are working together when they're tuned the same.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

how do these saturn rack toms sound to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS7HyJ2-4QI
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  #4  
Old 03-01-2012, 12:16 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

The ten sounds good. The 12 sounds tacky . Same heads?
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
The ten sounds good. The 12 sounds tacky . Same heads?
yeah same heads, i dunno if it's my ears but both heads on the 12" rack tom seem tuned to the same pitch, maybe I need to tune both heads a step or two higher?
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  #6  
Old 03-01-2012, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

You just can't beat same heads(batter and reso), same pitch (batter and reso) on a drum IMHO. Makes it musical

10 sounds good. 12 is too low. Go for "HERE COMES the bride" interval(4ths). When you sing the note of your 12 (here) and then the note of the 10 (comes). The 12 sounds flat... and since the drum doesn't sound as good (is not singing as well), raise it up a note or two(batter and reso).

http://www.tunadrum.com/drum-set-tuning-intervals
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  #7  
Old 03-01-2012, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

On my ddrum maple kit equal pitch tuning on the high toms sounds great but on my other three kits not so good.
I never even thought of tuning my thin shell Saturn equal. What a waste of a great drum.
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Last edited by bobdadruma; 03-01-2012 at 04:56 AM.
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  #8  
Old 03-01-2012, 04:25 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Hey Bob, may I ask how you like to tune the Saturns? How much tighter on the bottom? Seems like the pitch bend can be very profound on them (in my experience).
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Old 03-01-2012, 04:54 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlit View Post
Hey Bob, may I ask how you like to tune the Saturns? How much tighter on the bottom? Seems like the pitch bend can be very profound on them (in my experience).
I crank the 12 inch rack reso up 1/4 turn tighter than the batter.
The 14 inch floor is only about 1/8 turn tighter.
I am using the stock Amb reso's and G1 coated batters.
These drums sang their hearts out tonight at practice. The bass player couldn't make it due to illness and I was on my toms all night supplementing at key parts in the tunes.
I couldn't believe the notes that I found for these toms to play.
I love these drums more and more every time I play them.
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  #10  
Old 03-02-2012, 03:38 PM
PeteN PeteN is offline
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Updated Tuning...I adjusted the tuning on my 12" rack tom, please let me know what you think. It's always good to get opinions from you guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGE4Vzv21cc

Thanks Again
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  #11  
Old 03-02-2012, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

IMO, go higher. 10"E and 12"B for instance, or 10"D and 12"A.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by PeteN View Post
Updated Tuning...I adjusted the tuning on my 12" rack tom, please let me know what you think. It's always good to get opinions from you guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGE4Vzv21cc

Thanks Again
Much improved on the 12". Sounds musical know, not the slightly sour as before. Sounds about a 4th interval to me. Well done. Probably they are maybe as low as you want to go, so now it's just a matter of raising them both equally up, should you choose or to taste
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  #13  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:31 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by Sjogras View Post
IMO, go higher. 10"E and 12"B for instance, or 10"D and 12"A.
Yeah...I was trying to go as low as I thought I could just for starters I do prefer them a little higher as well.


Quote:
Much improved on the 12". Sounds musical know, not the slightly sour as before. Sounds about a 4th interval to me. Well done. Probably they are maybe as low as you want to go, so now it's just a matter of raising them both equally up, should you choose or to taste
Thanks Birdman...I had them tuned nicely last week and then I had to go experiment again lol because I'm obsessed now with tuning. But now I am trying to get good at getting both heads to same pitch and it can be deceiving initially.

I uploaded another updated vid with them tuned even a little higher again. Are you able to tell by listening if they sound like batters and resos are close to pitch matched?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-e1vWlugl8
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  #14  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

I also found another guy doing a sound check version of his Saturns on youtube and his toms sound way different than mine. I'm confused when I listen to his saturn toms because if his toms are tuned really well then I don't think I really care for his specific sound but then again hard to tell unless I played them in as a whole kit. I think I'd like his sound more but they just go dead so quick maybe it's just his room?

here's the other guys Saturn Vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHwb8...2&feature=plcp

Anyway...thanks for all your thoughts and opinions
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  #15  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Well since I chimed in initially it's only fair that I tell you that 12 sounds much better. If that is my kit I am happy with that sound. Would like to hear the floor in progression, but good job on the re-tune.
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  #16  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:49 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

How many drum key turns from finger tight in the last vid?
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  #17  
Old 03-03-2012, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Well since I chimed in initially it's only fair that I tell you that 12 sounds much better. If that is my kit I am happy with that sound. Would like to hear the floor in progression, but good job on the re-tune.
Thanks gruntersdad...without input from you guys I'd be ignorant with this stuff lol. Right now I have gretsch new classics setup, sometime next week I'll setup the saturns with the floor toms and take a new vid.
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2012, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by scarlit View Post
How many drum key turns from finger tight in the last vid?
Scarlit...I'm sorry I have no clue on turns. In the past whenever I tried to tune by counting turns I just wanted to take a sledge hammer to my drums. I know it works for some but unfortunately never for me lol
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  #19  
Old 03-03-2012, 04:17 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

I agree, so many variables(when you truly even out at the lugs) counting turns can be folly.
The newer tuning will have more cut in live music and have more presence, and you kept the interval between them. Nicely done. Yep, heads are even w/ each other (or darn close) as I hear a smooth sustain and no pitch bend.

Do you use a chromatic tuner w/a built in mic? I do, and swear by them for tuning. I tweak and get the same note at each lug, never testing the center until done. It's amazing how fast you can even out a bass drum, if you use a mallet on the edges. Just tune each lug to your desired note (you find that thru experimentation), bam, you are done.

The other guys youtube sounds good too because he has more spread(good intervals) w/ hitting his floor tom in the mix as well. On could argue his 10" is verging on chocking a bit, though.
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  #20  
Old 03-03-2012, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by Birdman View Post
I agree, so many variables(when you truly even out at the lugs) counting turns can be folly.
The newer tuning will have more cut in live music and have more presence, and you kept the interval between them. Nicely done. Yep, heads are even w/ each other (or darn close) as I hear a smooth sustain and no pitch bend.

Do you use a chromatic tuner w/a built in mic? I do, and swear by them for tuning. I tweak and get the same note at each lug, never testing the center until done. It's amazing how fast you can even out a bass drum, if you use a mallet on the edges. Just tune each lug to your desired note (you find that thru experimentation), bam, you are done.

The other guys youtube sounds good too because he has more spread(good intervals) w/ hitting his floor tom in the mix as well. On could argue his 10" is verging on chocking a bit, though.
Birdman...I never used a chromatic tuner, not sure how that works? I simply recorded with the zoom q3. Can you explain how that works?
Thanks
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  #21  
Old 03-03-2012, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

The Saturns can take the torque. I am playing a Jazz gig tomorrow night so I cranked my Saturns up nice and tight tonight.
Sounding great Pete.
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  #22  
Old 03-03-2012, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

They can also go looooow. Which is how I like them :)
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  #23  
Old 03-03-2012, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by PeteN View Post
Birdman...I never used a chromatic tuner, not sure how that works? I simply recorded with the zoom q3. Can you explain how that works?
Thanks
For about $14 you tuning world will change, http://www.korg.com/ca40 if you are getting into it and enjoy it (I do). I know what note my shells are minus hardware, I know what note the whole drum will make if I tune to a note at the lugs, etc.

Okay, it's battery powered, the built-in mic will pick up the drum (quiet room obviously if it's a semi solid note, I strike about 1.5" in from the hoop, the tuner can be laying on the floor, w/ you sitting on floor, one head isolated w/ pillow or blanket, you can watch the needle do it's thing). Now , it is drums and if you have some spots your head that are not making good contact w/ the bearing edge, you'll get some funky readings, after all this is not a string instrument. However, w/ minor work and tweaking it will read notes solid. The letter of the note (scale ABCDEFG) will appear on the display and the needles will swing if it's sharp or flat of that note.

I wrestle it a bit and it can even read the notes on snare side head (snares off of course) despite the very short sustain.

Get the drum even by ear as best you can. Now take readings from the tuner and start dialing in. As you would suspect, find the highest pitch lug and adjust just down, and find the lowest and tune up... you'll be amazed how fast the other lugs fall in line and things start to even out.

Have the stuff all written down and you can repeat-o over and over again when tuning.


Just for grins, here are my notes I tune to on Tama Starclassic Bubingas (when they were only made in Japan):


toms- clear G1 over clear G1. Kick EQ4/EQ4

batter and reso head tuned to same pitch except snare drum

4ths A B C D E F G

16" - head edges - B (shell note Cb/B#)

14" - head edges - E (shell note Fb/E#)

12" - head edges - A (below the middle C on a keyboard*) drum note - B (shell note Bb)

10" - head edges - D drum note - E (shell note Eb)

24" Kick - head edges - B

14" Snare - reso edges - A (above 10" tom note) , D - below reso note


*Here's the reference for a middle C if you don't know what that is(and of all things you see an inserted ad on there for a chromatic tuner!):http://www.harpkit.com/mm5/merchant....de=Onlinetuner

Last edited by Birdman; 03-03-2012 at 09:24 AM.
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  #24  
Old 03-03-2012, 08:27 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

This is a great thread, just got home with a new head for one of my toms and found your videos. I've got clear single ply's on top and bottom of my 10+12" toms now, and are tuned much the same as yours and they're sounding great. Both heads the same pitch. All I had to do was play the video, tweak the drum, play again, tweak again, got them sounding awesome. Quite a bit higher than I previously had. Tuning is SO much easier when you know where you're trying to get to.

I've tried the tuner method as well, but I guess my tuner isn't good enough as it rarely picks up the note. So do you hold the tuner over the lug you're tuning or can it stay in one place? My ear for pitch is shocking, I've tried using a piano, a guitar, even making my keyboard play a constant note, I just can't tell when it's high, low, or in tune. Guess that's why I'm not a singer!

Here's something else I have noticed - when I find a spot that is too low/high, adjusting that lug doesn't do a heck of a lot. But adjusting the lug opposite the problem area has a much larger affect and is easier to get it even. I don't think I've seen this in any tuning videos and have never seen it mentioned on this forum, so I wondered if anyone else found the same thing.
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  #25  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by kettles View Post
This is a great thread, just got home with a new head for one of my toms and found your videos. I've got clear single ply's on top and bottom of my 10+12" toms now, and are tuned much the same as yours and they're sounding great. Both heads the same pitch. All I had to do was play the video, tweak the drum, play again, tweak again, got them sounding awesome. Quite a bit higher than I previously had. Tuning is SO much easier when you know where you're trying to get to.
Yes, indeedy. It helps to have a mark to hit a target;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kettles View Post
I've tried the tuner method as well, but I guess my tuner isn't good enough as it rarely picks up the note.
If it's a Korg, u should be able to get there.


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Originally Posted by kettles View Post
So do you hold the tuner over the lug you're tuning or can it stay in one place?

I hold it in my left hand about 3" away and about 3" above, but if the note at the lug is semi pure, the tuner will pick it up laying on the ground(using mallets/bass beater to lesson the attack helps).

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Originally Posted by kettles View Post
My ear for pitch is shocking, I've tried using a piano, a guitar, even making my keyboard play a constant note, I just can't tell when it's high, low, or in tune. Guess that's why I'm not a singer!
Gatzen explains how weak on this us drummers are. We are all not Phil Collins, apparently. It takes practice and a bit of ear training. The tuner is way better than me, and I can get fooled by greater resonance at a lug, but the tuner does not, but I'm not helpless.

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Originally Posted by kettles View Post
Here's something else I have noticed - when I find a spot that is too low/high, adjusting that lug doesn't do a heck of a lot. But adjusting the lug opposite the problem area has a much larger affect and is easier to get it even. I don't think I've seen this in any tuning videos and have never seen it mentioned on this forum, so I wondered if anyone else found the same thing.
This is well covered in Gatzen's "Drum Tuning and Design" DVD. He describes it like shifting a ball cap on your head. Your method just helps kick the head around, when it;s "stuck" on one side. I paid good money for Gatzen's best selling DVD (and version 1 when it was on VHS) and now you can watch the whole dang thing for free on youtube. I was shocked to see it there in it's entirety.

Btw, The Drum Tuning Bible by Prof. Sound, that is oft pointed to to help drummers get a handle on this stuff.... well... way back when there was this drummers message board - primitive user interface(dial up days when AOL dominated) compared to today(Drumset.com?) w/ a lot of cool folks hanging around(a guy on there sold me my tuner) -- it was a moment in time;). And... there was this smart, experienced guy on there who kept helping guys like me, way back when, and I peppered him w/ a bunch of questions as what a resource he was/is. His answers were so good I dubbed him "Professor Sound"(Scott Johnson) and it stuck, and he was inspired to write "The Bible". He gives me, "Birdman", a little wink in the credits. ;)

Last edited by Birdman; 03-03-2012 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:37 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Ok guess I'll have to watch that sometime :) So are you saying adjusting the opposite lug is the wrong thing to do?

I'll take a drum into the music shop and try out a bunch of tuners. I guess that's like what the Tune Bot was designed to do.

That's a cool story about the drum tuning bible. That thing must be about due for an update.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

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Originally Posted by kettles View Post
Ok guess I'll have to watch that sometime :) So are you saying adjusting the opposite lug is the wrong thing to do?

I'll take a drum into the music shop and try out a bunch of tuners. I guess that's like what the Tune Bot was designed to do.

That's a cool story about the drum tuning bible. That thing must be about due for an update.
No, it's many times the right thing to to do, and insightful on your part!

You will enjoy Bob Gatzen's video. Some people find him kind of nerdy/goofy(especially in the updated sections). Nahh, he's got a great spirit and it shines thru. You will learn a lot and it's nice to go over the basics. He has some tuning to notes videos too on Youtube, but they can be hard to find for some odd reason) But, one thing I do really disagree w/ him and his "specialty" on snare drums. I don't like snare drums at all that are tuned w/ the batter higher than the reso. I find it creates a lot of snare tension issues and sweet spot issues, all related to snare wire tension. I find the opposite tuning much better sounding. I am not alone as it was what you mostly hear from the pros, but not Bob. Oh well.

Thats' cool you are a Kiwi, beautiful country. LOR is the greatest trilogy ever put on film.

Last edited by Birdman; 03-03-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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  #28  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:50 PM
PeteN PeteN is offline
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
The Saturns can take the torque. I am playing a Jazz gig tomorrow night so I cranked my Saturns up nice and tight tonight.
Sounding great Pete.
Thanks bob...two weeks ago I had them tuned higher similar to a gospel sounding kit yet not as high as jazz. I do find these saturns have a wider tuning range than other drums. Wondering if it's their thin shell composition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman
For about $14 you tuning world will change, http://www.korg.com/ca40 if you are getting into it and enjoy it (I do). I know what note my shells are minus hardware, I know what note the whole drum will make if I tune to a note at the lugs, etc.
Thanks I'll give that a try. I've had Bob Gatzens DVD for over a year now and one thing that has taken me a long time to get clear through my thick skull is to not listen at the attack when tapping at each lug point. He states to listen to the sustain and that has taken me a while to understand/embed in the cave between my ears lol :-)

Sounds like your chromatic tuner would be providing support/backup to ones ears...so that's a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kettles
This is a great thread, just got home with a new head for one of my toms and found your videos. I've got clear single ply's on top and bottom of my 10+12" toms now, and are tuned much the same as yours and they're sounding great. Both heads the same pitch. All I had to do was play the video, tweak the drum, play again, tweak again, got them sounding awesome. Quite a bit higher than I previously had. Tuning is SO much easier when you know where you're trying to get to.

I've tried the tuner method as well, but I guess my tuner isn't good enough as it rarely picks up the note. So do you hold the tuner over the lug you're tuning or can it stay in one place? My ear for pitch is shocking, I've tried using a piano, a guitar, even making my keyboard play a constant note, I just can't tell when it's high, low, or in tune. Guess that's why I'm not a singer!

Here's something else I have noticed - when I find a spot that is too low/high, adjusting that lug doesn't do a heck of a lot. But adjusting the lug opposite the problem area has a much larger affect and is easier to get it even. I don't think I've seen this in any tuning videos and have never seen it mentioned on this forum, so I wondered if anyone else found the same thing.
That's awesome kettles! And yeah...opposite lug adjusting is usually where you see an immediate improvement to the lug that is not repsonsive. If you search Bob Gatzen on youtube he has many vids from his Tuning DVD, those youtube vids alone are a great help but even better if you eventually get the DVD.
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  #29  
Old 03-03-2012, 03:04 PM
PeteN PeteN is offline
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Default Re: Equal pitch tuning on rack toms feels good!

I have made 3 different mapex saturn sound checks during this thread with 3 different tunings.


1) the first one was where the 12" rack was too low and needed to be brought up because it was kind of dead/limp/tacky sounding http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS7HyJ2-4QI

2) The second one I brought up the 12" rack to clean it up which also forced me to bring up the 10" as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGE4Vzv21cc

3) This one I raised it them up even a little more and tried to make sure both heads on each rack were close to pitch matched as close as my ears can tell for now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-e1vWlugl8


You guys have been very helpful and supportive with your input and thoughts :-)

Thanks again!
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